View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #211
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Bottom line: symbols are used for various meanings. Those meanings can change over time, and vary due to the individual's perspective.

    There are millions of people for whom the Stars and Bars are a positive symbol. Disagree with them if you wish, that's your right as an American.

    Is there anyone here, though, who is advocating that the Confederate flag be banned by law? That flying it or displaying it be made a criminal offense?


    That's a very different thing, see. I disagree with a lot of things... doesn't always mean I want them outlawed.
    Nope, I just find it to be distasteful and ignorant.

  2. #212
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Is there anyone here, though, who is advocating that the Confederate flag be banned by law? That flying it or displaying it be made a criminal offense?
    No, I certainly don't think anybody is proposing that. I would strong oppose that.

    However, in my opinion, the government should not ever fly the confederate flag either. Flying it on MLK day is especially offensive, but flying it any time on a state or local government building, given that two of the meanings it sometimes symbolizes are treason and slavery, is inappropriate.

  3. #213
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    What was the primary intent then? You act as if the South did not deserve what they had coming to them.
    To form their own form of political governance, representative of their own cultural values.
    That was the primary intent.
    Some were definitely wrong, like slavery.

    How did many of those people "deserve" it?
    A great many, didn't even own slaves.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #214
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    To form their own form of political governance, representative of their own cultural values.
    That was the primary intent.
    Some were definitely wrong, like slavery.

    How did many of those people "deserve" it?
    A great many, didn't even own slaves.
    What cultural values? Why did the south choose to secede and go to war with the Union?

  5. #215
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    What cultural values? Why did the south choose to secede and go to war with the Union?
    To form their own government.
    I just answered this.

    The cultural divide was in many areas, from religion to society, they were ever present.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  6. #216
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    To form their own government.
    I just answered this.

    The cultural divide was in many areas, from religion to society, they were ever present.
    Actually those divides remain, to a large degree, to this day. The South is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented regions in the country. In a time when most stereotypes are viewed with great disfavor, it remains acceptible to stereotype Southerners as ignorant racist hicks.

    There remain many huge cultural divides between the South and the Northeast, as well as much of the West Coast. Customs and religion, traditions and social practices, family and work... the South is a culture unto itself still in many ways.

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  7. #217
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Actually those divides remain, to a large degree, to this day. The South is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented regions in the country. In a time when most stereotypes are viewed with great disfavor, it remains acceptible to stereotype Southerners as ignorant racist hicks.

    There remain many huge cultural divides between the South and the Northeast, as well as much of the West Coast. Customs and religion, traditions and social practices, family and work... the South is a culture unto itself still in many ways.
    It's largely why I think that the South should be it's own nation.
    We've escaped a lot of the wrongs of the old south, the paternalistic relationship and slavery of the plantation owners.

    We're different and we're fine with it, but everyone else needs to get a grip.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #218
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, I certainly don't think anybody is proposing that. I would strong oppose that.

    However, in my opinion, the government should not ever fly the confederate flag either. Flying it on MLK day is especially offensive, but flying it any time on a state or local government building, given that two of the meanings it sometimes symbolizes are treason and slavery, is inappropriate.
    Totally agree. It's fine for private citizens, but should not be allowed on public property or on anything issued by the state.

  9. #219
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    It means different things to different people.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  10. #220
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    To form their own government.
    I just answered this.

    The cultural divide was in many areas, from religion to society, they were ever present.
    Ohh, damn, I was taught the wrong stuff all along. These guys were just like, "hey man, were different so let's form a new country". Oh, I didn't realize that. That's weird timing though, eh? Well, I don't buy it.

    Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

    Georgia's Secession
    The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation. Our Northern confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts, after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large majority committed the Government of the United States into their hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state. The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution. While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all, it was plainly apparent that slavery would soon disappear from what are now the non-slave-holding States of the original thirteen. The opposition to slavery was then, as now, general in those States and the Constitution was made with direct reference to that fact. But a distinct abolition party was not formed in the United States for more than half a century after the Government went into operation. The main reason was that the North, even if united, could not control both branches of the Legislature during any portion of that time. Therefore such an organization must have resulted either in utter failure or in the total overthrow of the Government. The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency. The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.
    Anything bolded was directly discussing slavery. That's almost half of the introduction to their reasons for secession. That does not mean that the other parts aren't related to slavery either, they just aren't directly referring to it. I won't put all of it on here, but I will highlight some key parts:

    All these classes saw this and felt it and cast about for new allies. The anti-slavery sentiment of the North offered the best chance for success. An anti-slavery party must necessarily look to the North alone for support, but a united North was now strong enough to control the Government in all of its departments, and a sectional party was therefore determined upon. Time and issues upon slavery were necessary to its completion and final triumph. The feeling of anti-slavery, which it was well known was very general among the people of the North, had been long dormant or passive; it needed only a question to arouse it into aggressive activity. This question was before us. We had acquired a large territory by successful war with Mexico; Congress had to govern it; how, in relation to slavery, was the question then demanding solution. This state of facts gave form and shape to the anti-slavery sentiment throughout the North and the conflict began. Northern anti-slavery men of all parties asserted the right to exclude slavery from the territory by Congressional legislation and demanded the prompt and efficient exercise of this power to that end. This insulting and unconstitutional demand was met with great moderation and firmness by the South. We had shed our blood and paid our money for its acquisition; we demanded a division of it on the line of the Missouri restriction or an equal participation in the whole of it. These propositions were refused, the agitation became general, and the public danger was great. The case of the South was impregnable. The price of the acquisition was the blood and treasure of both sections-- of all, and, therefore, it belonged to all upon the principles of equity and justice.
    The entire third paragraph (the second paragraph was about two lines total so you didn't miss much).

    The Constitution delegated no power to Congress to excluded either party from its free enjoyment; therefore our right was good under the Constitution. Our rights were further fortified by the practice of the Government from the beginning. Slavery was forbidden in the country northwest of the Ohio River by what is called the ordinance of 1787. That ordinance was adopted under the old confederation and by the assent of Virginia, who owned and ceded the country, and therefore this case must stand on its own special circumstances. The Government of the United States claimed territory by virtue of the treaty of 1783 with Great Britain, acquired territory by cession from Georgia and North Carolina, by treaty from France, and by treaty from Spain. These acquisitions largely exceeded the original limits of the Republic. In all of these acquisitions the policy of the Government was uniform. It opened them to the settlement of all the citizens of all the States of the Union. They emigrated thither with their property of every kind (including slaves). All were equally protected by public authority in their persons and property until the inhabitants became sufficiently numerous and otherwise capable of bearing the burdens and performing the duties of self-government, when they were admitted into the Union upon equal terms with the other States, with whatever republican constitution they might adopt for themselves.
    Entirely about slavery. Maybe I will quote the whole thing.

    Such are the opinions and such are the practices of the Republican party, who have been called by their own votes to administer the Federal Government under the Constitution of the United States. We know their treachery; we know the shallow pretenses under which they daily disregard its plainest obligations. If we submit to them it will be our fault and not theirs. The people of Georgia have ever been willing to stand by this bargain, this contract; they have never sought to evade any of its obligations; they have never hitherto sought to establish any new government; they have struggled to maintain the ancient right of themselves and the human race through and by that Constitution. But they know the value of parchment rights in treacherous hands, and therefore they refuse to commit their own to the rulers whom the North offers us. Why? Because by their declared principles and policy they have outlawed $3,000,000,000 of our property in the common territories of the Union; put it under the ban of the Republic in the States where it exists and out of the protection of Federal law everywhere; because they give sanctuary to thieves and incendiaries who assail it to the whole extent of their power, in spite of their most solemn obligations and covenants; because their avowed purpose is to subvert our society and subject us not only to the loss of our property but the destruction of ourselves, our wives, and our children, and the desolation of our homes, our altars, and our firesides. To avoid these evils we resume the powers which our fathers delegated to the Government of the United States, and henceforth will seek new safeguards for our liberty, equality, security, and tranquillity.
    Need anything else? "Because by their declared principles and policy they have outlawed $3,000,000,000 of our property in the common territories of the Union".

    Next comes Mississippi!

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