View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Voters
98. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    36 36.73%
  • No

    56 57.14%
  • I don't know.

    6 6.12%
Page 21 of 183 FirstFirst ... 1119202122233171121 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 210 of 1824

Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #201
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Slavery was an issue, not because of the morality of the politicians (ha! anyone really think politicians have such high moral standards), because those northern politicians wanted to contain southern political influence.
    The northern politicians didn't want slavery to expand to the new territories, so they could limit their opponents political power, using the federal government.
    It was an internal power grab.

    You're operating on the presumption that the U.S. government wanted to abolish slavery, which it didn't.
    So no it's quite an accurate comparison.
    I really feel bad for the abolitionists, they were the only ones who had the right intentions and the northern politicians used that to the fullest.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  2. #202
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I really feel bad for the abolitionists, they were the only ones who had the right intentions and the northern politicians used that to the fullest.
    They weren't entirely clean either though.
    They wanted to "domesticate" those pagan slaves.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #203
    Sage
    whysoserious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Last Seen
    12-29-16 @ 03:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    8,170

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Slavery was an issue, not because of the morality of the politicians (ha! anyone really think politicians have such high moral standards), because those northern politicians wanted to contain southern political influence.
    The northern politicians didn't want slavery to expand to the new territories, so they could limit their opponents political power, using the federal government.
    It was an internal power grab.

    You're operating on the presumption that the U.S. government wanted to abolish slavery, which it didn't.
    So no it's quite an accurate comparison.
    You are getting into cynical motives that I don't care to get into, unless you can somehow prove them relative. Personally, I do not care what intentions northern politicians had, as that is another topic and only serves as an indictment towards low moral character. But it still doesn't change the issue, and only goes further to show that the issue of slavery, whether a bargaining chip of the north's or not, was still the biggest issues leading to the Civil War. Let me put it another way:

    If the northern states were raping children before the war, and the south used the abolition of child raping as a means to further their agenda and keep the north at bay, I would still support the south's decision (albeit as shady as they are). I do not support raping of children, and, quite frankly, the north could quit raping children if they wanted more "fairness".

    *Edit: Oh, and I liked your post if only for the cheap shot on politicians. I agree.
    Last edited by whysoserious; 11-12-11 at 07:29 PM.

  4. #204
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    You are getting into cynical motives that I don't care to get into, unless you can somehow prove them relative. Personally, I do not care what intentions northern politicians had, as that is another topic and only serves as an indictment towards low moral character. But it still doesn't change the issue, and only goes further to show that the issue of slavery, whether a bargaining chip of the north's or not, was still the biggest issues leading to the Civil War. Let me put it another way:

    If the northern states were raping children before the war, and the south used the abolition of child raping as a means to further their agenda and keep the north at bay, I would still support the south's decision (albeit as shady as they are). I do not support raping of children, and, quite frankly, the north could quit raping children if they wanted more "fairness".
    If the details and motives of the states rights arguments are important, then the motive of the opposite is important.
    Your taking an idolized version of what happened and you use it to berate the people who still hold the southern flag, as a symbol of pride and regional nationalism.

    The north did not use abolition, some private individuals did that.
    Neither the states of the north, nor would the U.S. government, sneak slaves out from the South.
    It's not an accurate comparison.

    Edit: If the Southern Battle Flag is offensive, then the Coat of Arms on the Massachusetts flag should be equally offensive.
    They were after all, the first colony to legalize slavery.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 11-12-11 at 07:31 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #205
    Sage
    whysoserious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Last Seen
    12-29-16 @ 03:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    8,170

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If the details and motives of the states rights arguments are important, then the motive of the opposite is important.
    Your taking an idolized version of what happened and you use it to berate the people who still hold the southern flag, as a symbol of pride and regional nationalism.

    The north did not use abolition, some private individuals did that.
    Neither the states of the north, nor would the U.S. government, sneak slaves out from the South.
    It's not an accurate comparison.

    Edit: If the Southern Battle Flag is offensive, then the Coat of Arms on the Massachusetts flag should be equally offensive.
    They were after all, the first colony to legalize slavery.
    Well I think if we were discussing some flag that the north created specifically at that time there would be reason to discuss the creation of that flag. I am still not seeing your point. I see that you have said the north's intentions were not exactly pure, and that's fine, I don't know much about it but I'll concede that point to you out of faith that you are correct (since we have had decent debates in the past). But again, I think you are missing the point. For instance, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    If the Southern Battle Flag is offensive, then the Coat of Arms on the Massachusetts flag should be equally offensive.
    They were after all, the first colony to legalize slavery.
    And while that is an interesting piece of history, it isn't relevant. No one is reminded of slavery because the flag existed during slavery, but rather people feel the Confederate flag was created for the sole purpose of keeping slavery. I don't think that can be said about any other flag in this country. Again, unless you can name reasons for secession that have no bearing or ties to slavery, then you'd have to admit that the south did secede due to slavery and that the origins of the Confederate flag are tied to that particular institution.

  6. #206
    Sage
    teamosil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    05-22-14 @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,623

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The big problem with the Dixie argument is two groups of idiots, the southern racists who misrepresent the flag by flying it to decree rasist intent(KKK, etc.)
    Well, unfortunately it is much broader than the KKK and whatnot. For example, there are many cities in the south that still to this day take out the confederate flag and fly it on city buildings specifically on Martin Luther King day and not other days. I think Virginia just stopped doing that on the state capitol maybe 5 years ago or so and a number of cities still do it. The only way that makes a lick of sense is if they are flying it as a symbol of their feelings towards black people, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    then there is the group of non-southerners who have decided that their opinion on our culture is the only one that counts.
    That seems like quite a leap to assume that they are judging your culture. It isn't the flag of the modern southern states, it's the flag from the confederacy. A person can, and in fact most people do, like the south, but consider the confederacy to have been evil. Genocide was committed against the native americans in many northern states. That is undeniably evil, and somebody who was flying a symbol of that slaughter in a supportive way would get some serious flak, but that doesn't mean that the people giving them flak must hate northern culture. They don't hate southern culture, they hate slavery and they hate losing 620,000 American lives. That's more than we've lost in any other war in our history. Celebrating that is pretty troubling to most people even if they love the south.

    IMO having symbols that represent both something positive and wholesome, and at the same time represent white supremacy, is a really bad idea. It's a way for white supremacists to be able to openly express their support for white supremacy while pretending it is just innocent and it legitimates white supremacy by lumping it in with something positive. And it reinforces the perception of the south as racist. A perception I think is at least wildly exaggerated, but you guys aren't doing yourselves any favors on that score by clinging on to symbols that remind everybody that your states fought a war and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans partly for the purpose of continuing a holocaust against black people.

  7. #207
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Well I think if we were discussing some flag that the north created specifically at that time there would be reason to discuss the creation of that flag. I am still not seeing your point. I see that you have said the north's intentions were not exactly pure, and that's fine, I don't know much about it but I'll concede that point to you out of faith that you are correct (since we have had decent debates in the past). But again, I think you are missing the point. For instance, you said:



    And while that is an interesting piece of history, it isn't relevant. No one is reminded of slavery because the flag existed during slavery, but rather people feel the Confederate flag was created for the sole purpose of keeping slavery. I don't think that can be said about any other flag in this country. Again, unless you can name reasons for secession that have no bearing or ties to slavery, then you'd have to admit that the south did secede due to slavery and that the origins of the Confederate flag are tied to that particular institution.
    Yes, part of the reason for secession was slavery, but the sole intent was not entirely for slavery.
    The South was completely and entirely wrong for supporting slavery.

    With that said, for the common man, it was a noble experience in context.
    A bunch of poor, regular joes, volunteered to fight to defend their home, some having no weapons at all and they did so successfully for a few years.
    Even when their opponent was better armed and better fed.

    If you notice, most of the people that take the Confederate Battle Flag to heart, are still regular joes.
    They see something entirely different, than what those offended see.

    It is a cultural divide, that can't be solved by banning it's use.

    Edit: It holds powerful iconography of the old, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps, no matter the adversity one faces.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 11-12-11 at 07:49 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #208
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    New York, New York
    Last Seen
    03-11-16 @ 11:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    551

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    No. It's a symbol of exactly what it was- an attempted succession from the country due to disputes including but not limited to slavery.

  9. #209
    Sage
    whysoserious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Last Seen
    12-29-16 @ 03:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    8,170

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    No. It's a symbol of exactly what it was- an attempted succession from the country due to disputes including but not limited to slavery.
    Such as what, specifically?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yes, part of the reason for secession was slavery, but the sole intent was not entirely for slavery.
    The South was completely and entirely wrong for supporting slavery.

    With that said, for the common man, it was a noble experience in context.
    A bunch of poor, regular joes, volunteered to fight to defend their home, some having no weapons at all and they did so successfully for a few years.
    Even when their opponent was better armed and better fed.
    What was the primary intent then? You act as if the South did not deserve what they had coming to them.
    Last edited by whysoserious; 11-12-11 at 08:07 PM.

  10. #210
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:34 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,185

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Bottom line: symbols are used for various meanings. Those meanings can change over time, and vary due to the individual's perspective.

    There are millions of people for whom the Stars and Bars are a positive symbol. Disagree with them if you wish, that's your right as an American.

    Is there anyone here, though, who is advocating that the Confederate flag be banned by law? That flying it or displaying it be made a criminal offense?


    That's a very different thing, see. I disagree with a lot of things... doesn't always mean I want them outlawed.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •