View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #181
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Why does there need to be Southern Nationalism? Do we need US pride, Southern pride, state pride, city pride, and neighborhood pride too? And way to define the argument, by the way. Nice try in dancing the issue, but let's be clear, no matter how you try to paint their intentions, the intentions were to keep slavery. I love that debate tactic, though, it was impressive. "It's not like they liked slavery, I mean yes, a big reason they seceded was because they wanted to keep slavery, but it's not like they enjoyed it or anything."

    That's good. Well played, sir.
    Hell yes we need pride in all of those. If more people took true pride in their cities, their neighborhoods, their schools, and even in their individual families, violent crime rates, child neglect/abuse, litter, etc. would probably be a helluva good deal lower. As far as pride in just being lumped into the "human" race......nah, not so much. So, my friend, talking membership-wise or heritage-wise, do you have any pride at all? If so, in what? If not, why not?
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    It's a particularly complex symbol with many different meanings. To some it is simply a symbol of southern pride. Kind of a reaction to the perception that people look down on them like gay pride flags or people flying the flag of their nation of origin. To others it communicates something about state's rights. But, ultimately it is the flag used by a group of states that started a war against their fellow Americans at least partly for the purpose of continuing the practice of enslaving black people.

    While I do really believe that some people who fly it honestly are trying to communicate a wholly positive message that has nothing to do with racism at all, the south needs to find a new symbol of southern pride or for state's rights because this one is inextricably also a symbol of slavery. While the south has much it should be proud of, the civil war is not one of those things. They need to find a way to celebrate their pride in their region of the country that doesn't also involve praising crimes against humanity.

  3. #183
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Because a super national government, like that of the U.S. can not possibly represent all the interests of it's citizens.
    I've never been in favor of the U.S. government, as it is.

    I didn't dance around anything, I addressed it directly.
    The core principle was, the feds overstepped their authority.
    Well Southerners haven't changed much eh? It's just like today with this ObamaCare nonsense, which people claiming we might as well shred the Constitution. Of course, when it is a law they agree with, the US Government isn't overstepping its bounds. If Congress were able to institute a law banning abortion, I doubt there would be much outcry from conservatives about that. I don't see many conservatives crying about Defense of Marriage Act, either. Try as you might to deflect the issue, the "states rights" that were being infringed all came back to slavery. Whether it pertained to laws in new territories (The Missouri Compromise), the Fugitive Slave Laws, or even the election of Lincoln. That's why you are stopping at saying the "feds overstepped their authority" and not discussing that overstep.

    I'll save the whole southern nationalism thing for an argument on another day.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Hell yes we need pride in all of those. If more people took true pride in their cities, their neighborhoods, their schools, and even in their individual families, violent crime rates, child neglect/abuse, litter, etc. would probably be a helluva good deal lower. As far as pride in just being lumped into the "human" race......nah, not so much. So, my friend, talking membership-wise or heritage-wise, do you have any pride at all? If so, in what? If not, why not?
    I thought I said that in my post. I have have pride in all of us as a race first - though talks on this board make that difficult sometimes. I personally do not hold my race, country, state, etc above anyone else. I do have pride in my country, as well, but we certainly have a long way to go to become this "beacon of liberty" that we aspire to be. I'd say I do even have a bit of Southern pride as well, but I lived up north for a bit, and I probably have a bit of Northern pride as well. I don't know that, in terms of regions, pride is the correct word - perhaps affection fits better. I love the South and the people in it.
    Last edited by whysoserious; 11-12-11 at 06:46 PM.

  4. #184
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Well Southerners haven't changed much eh? It's just like today with this ObamaCare nonsense, which people claiming we might as well shred the Constitution. Of course, when it is a law they agree with, the US Government isn't overstepping its bounds. If Congress were able to institute a law banning abortion, I doubt there would be much outcry from conservatives about that. I don't see many conservatives crying about Defense of Marriage Act, either. Try as you might to deflect the issue, the "states rights" that were being infringed all came back to slavery. Whether it pertained to laws in new territories (The Missouri Compromise), the Fugitive Slave Laws, or even the election of Lincoln. That's why you are stopping at saying the "feds overstepped their authority" and not discussing that overstep.

    I'll save the whole southern nationalism thing for an argument on another day.
    You are attempting to "deflect" the entire issue right now by creating a strawman argument. Why is it necessary to drag "the Defense of Marriage Act", abortion, or Obama Care into this discussion. Enjoy trolling and baiting much do we?
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  5. #185
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Well Southerners haven't changed much eh? It's just like today with this ObamaCare nonsense, which people claiming we might as well shred the Constitution. Of course, when it is a law they agree with, the US Government isn't overstepping its bounds. If Congress were able to institute a law banning abortion, I doubt there would be much outcry from conservatives about that. I don't see many conservatives crying about Defense of Marriage Act, either. Try as you might to deflect the issue, the "states rights" that were being infringed all came back to slavery. Whether it pertained to laws in new territories (The Missouri Compromise), the Fugitive Slave Laws, or even the election of Lincoln. That's why you are stopping at saying the "feds overstepped their authority" and not discussing that overstep.
    It's a different culture.
    Southern cultural beliefs are different from others and you can't force people into agreeing by shoe horning them into one nation.

    We can discuss the slavery issue, if you'd like, but it doesn't take away from the argument that, the feds over stepped their authority.
    The facts are too, that the northern states didn't abolish slavery until after the end of the war.

    So stating that the sole cause of the war was slavery, is dishonest.

    Why is the American flag, not considered equally offensive, when slavery existed under it?
    Sounds a lot like cherry picking to me.
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  6. #186
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    You are attempting to "deflect" the entire issue right now by creating a strawman argument. Why is it necessary to drag "the Defense of Marriage Act", abortion, or Obama Care into this discussion. Enjoy trolling and baiting much do we?
    Because I have heard, literally in the past few minutes, talks of how this country is overstepping its bounds lately with ObamaCare. States have threatened to secede over ObamaCare, often saying it is socialism and that infringes upon their rights. I just think it's funny that people live in a democracy, they enjoy the benefits of said democracy, but the second anything is enacted that they do not agree with, all of the sudden the democracy is broken and they do not want to be a part of it. But these people have no issue with the other acts that infringe upon rights, as long as it doesn't affect them. Similarly, people want to cut entitlements, unless it's their entitlement, in which case it's not an entitlement it's a right.

    But I digress with comparison to current times. Paint the picture any way you like, but the institution of slavery and the Civil War are not mutually exclusive, and nor is the Confederate flag.

  7. #187
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    There are several threads on the Confederate flag that dance around this question.

    Many people, usually, if not always, conservatives, argue in favor of the Confederate flag and the desire to fly it or place it within the public domain. Oftentimes, they refer to it as if it is merely an innocent symbol of United States history, a symbol of state's rights, a symbol of fighting against far reaching federal government and sometimes even a symbol of patriotism.

    However, these arguments, to me, seem like revisionist nonsense. The Confederate flag represents treason. It was the flag of people whose actions were not based in love of their country, but in a decision to give up on their country and abandon it in order to form a new one. It was a flag flown by those who decided that they no longer wished to be a part of the United States and that they no longer wished to solve their problems while remaining Americans.

    Consequently, it seems obvious to me that the Confederate flag is not one that would be flown proudly by Americans, but one that would be flown proudly by those who no longer wish to be Americans. For this reason, it seems ridiculous to allow such a flag to be present on anything belonging to or issued by the state as it represents those who want to disassociate themselves from the state. It also seems ridiculous for anyone who considers themselves a patriot to fly the flag of people who abandoned their patriotism. Am I right about all of this? If not, why not?
    I think that whether the confederate flag represents treason depends on whether you think that the secession of the southern states represented treason.

    My opinion is that it did not. Prior to entering into their compact, the several states were independent sovereign states (as in nation states). There is nothing in the constitution that indicates that these states ever relinquished their sovereignty, nor is there any constitutional prohibition against secession. There was nothing about secession that damaged any of the other states that chose to remain in the union, nor did any of the seceding states initially take up arms against the union. The seceding states simply revoked their delegation of sovereignty to their agent, the federal government.

  8. #188
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's a particularly complex symbol with many different meanings. To some it is simply a symbol of southern pride. Kind of a reaction to the perception that people look down on them like gay pride flags or people flying the flag of their nation of origin. To others it communicates something about state's rights. But, ultimately it is the flag used by a group of states that started a war against their fellow Americans at least partly for the purpose of continuing the practice of enslaving black people.
    It is a complex issue, but not because of the flag itself. I don't have a problem with people waving flags of their countries of origin under most circumstances, unless they are doing so in a protest to us as a host country ala LaRaza and some of the other extremist groups. Gay pride flags don't concern me at all, they make a statement about acceptance of their own lifestyle and an appeal to respect.....I get that and have no problem with it. The big problem with the Dixie argument is two groups of idiots, the southern racists who misrepresent the flag by flying it to decree rasist intent(KKK, etc.) and then there is the group of non-southerners who have decided that their opinion on our culture is the only one that counts. To the former I say "get a clue, you don't represent us and are making us look bad", to the latter I say "go **** yourselves you pretentious bunch of jackasses, you are not appointed to the cultural assignment committee, go to hell".

    While I do really believe that some people who fly it honestly are trying to communicate a wholly positive message that has nothing to do with racism at all, the south needs to find a new symbol of southern pride or for state's rights because this one is inextricably also a symbol of slavery. While the south has much it should be proud of, the civil war is not one of those things. They need to find a way to celebrate their pride in their region of the country that doesn't also involve praising crimes against humanity.
    Believe this or not, we are still to this day fighting the Civil War. I'll explain, slavery is over and should be forever in the U.S. but the core issues of state's rights, and especially the duty of the U.S. under the commerce clause to protect and not hinder interstate trade, and the limitations of the governments powers are today more important than ever. The south saw the U.S. trying to federalize and took a shot at stopping the encroacment of centralized government, we lost, so now we constantly have to fight about where and when the federal oversteps it's authority, all of the modern chaos comes from that issue.

    So yes.......it is quite complicated.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Well Southerners haven't changed much eh? It's just like today with this ObamaCare nonsense, which people claiming we might as well shred the Constitution. Of course, when it is a law they agree with, the US Government isn't overstepping its bounds. If Congress were able to institute a law banning abortion, I doubt there would be much outcry from conservatives about that. I don't see many conservatives crying about Defense of Marriage Act, either. Try as you might to deflect the issue, the "states rights" that were being infringed all came back to slavery. Whether it pertained to laws in new territories (The Missouri Compromise), the Fugitive Slave Laws, or even the election of Lincoln. That's why you are stopping at saying the "feds overstepped their authority" and not discussing that overstep.

    I'll save the whole southern nationalism thing for an argument on another day.



    I thought I said that in my post. I have have pride in all of us as a race first - though talks on this board make that difficult sometimes. I personally do not hold my race, country, state, etc above anyone else. I do have pride in my country, as well, but we certainly have a long way to go to become this "beacon of liberty" that we aspire to be. I'd say I do even have a bit of Southern pride as well, but I lived up north for a bit, and I probably have a bit of Northern pride as well. I don't know that, in terms of regions, pride is the correct word - perhaps affection fits better. I love the South and the people in it.
    You would have had a stronger argument if you had simply maintained that the southern states used the state's rights rhetoric only when it benefitted their interests most.

    Injecting contemporary politics into a historical discussion is at best anachronistic, and at worst, intellectually insulting.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 11-12-11 at 07:00 PM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    from HG

    Southern cultural beliefs are different from others and you can't force people into agreeing by shoe horning them into one nation.
    When it comes to certain things like treason - Oh yes we can. America - the USA - is one nation and one people with one set of national laws. Of course there are sub cultures below that. But no subculture in America has a right to treason and to take up arms against the USA.
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