View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1661
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Were Africans enslaved because they were thought to be inferior?...
    Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition

    Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederate States of America

    Cornerstone Speech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's not a racial stereotype; that's a fact. Blacks, who grew up in Africa were better suited for working long hours in the hot, humid climate of the South.

    What do you think would happen, if you put a bunch of Norwegians in 100 degree heat, chopping sugar cane all day? They would all be dead, by the end of the week.
    Sounds to me like you believe in fundamental biological differences between races. There is a one-word term for that kind of belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Oh? Do tell. Do explain how they would have went out of their way to pay MORE money for African slaves with some bit of historical documentation that hey did it ONLY because african slaves were black....

    What you're getting at is the generally accepted beliefs about race among the Colonists (yes, it's fair to go back that far).

    BTW, your argument is an unintentional but strong dig against unrestrained capitalism. And I happen to agree with that part of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You don't think religion had nothing to do with it?

    Religion is a driving factor in how folks were treated hundreds of years ago..... as well as race.
    I don't think that could explain it, though. Think about it: All the slaves that had become Christians, did that earn them their freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, the indians believed Europeans were too weak to survive in North America.

    There's a feeling of superiority in every culture.
    Which led to the slaughter of millions of Caucasians and the destruction of their way of life? I forgot about that...

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    It was used as a justification, but nobody ever said "Hey, black people are inferior, let's enslave them."

    They got their slaves where they were available, and then justified it.
    Again, this raises the question of racial attitudes dating back even before America was born.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post



    What you're getting at is the generally accepted beliefs about race among the Colonists (yes, it's fair to go back that far).
    You mean generally accepted beliefs about SLAVERY... not race. They are not mutually inclusive...


    BTW, your argument is an unintentional but strong dig against unrestrained capitalism. And I happen to agree with that part of it.
    Thats because its common sense economics...... As for the "dig against" part, you'll have to explain how you feel it is a "dig against capitalism".



    I don't think that could explain it, though. Think about it: All the slaves that had become Christians, did that earn them their freedom?
    No. I never said it would. I was responding to a poster who was making a big deal about the colonists and others calling the africans "savages". The point was that anyone who didn't have a belief in a god and lived in a tribal type community was considered a savage... regardless of race. The comment was not pertaining to slavery, but to the use of the word savage. If I really had to explain how my comment applied to the topic in this manner, It makes me wonder what else you are misunderstanding.




    Which led to the slaughter of millions of Caucasians and the destruction of their way of life? I forgot about that...
    Their way of life was to be a slave, for they failed to defend themselves from being conquered by stronger african tribes that defeated them, captured them, and sold them into slavery....



    Again, this raises the question of racial attitudes dating back even before America was born.
    You mean the reason for slavery, which by the way, started before America was born, which by the way is the only appropriate historical context the institution of slavery in America can ever be viewed in.....
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Sounds to me like you believe in fundamental biological differences between races. There is a one-word term for that kind of belief.
    Yea: Science

    I mean you are willing to accept blacks are physically prone to high blood pressure, cycle cell anemia and asthma, but that we are not built for the African climate? We also have smaller rib cages, denser bones and narrower hips etc. Race can be identified by simple bones. So these and many other scientific facts are racist?

    Their are genetic differences between the races, this is just a scientific fact, not racism. I mean their is only what? A 95.8 to 98.9 percent difference between apes and humans, look how wide a gap that small percentage is. Why is it racist to admit physical differences exist between the races?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 11-27-11 at 08:20 AM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You mean generally accepted beliefs about SLAVERY... not race. They are not mutually inclusive...
    Don't try to sweep this under the rug. Even if racism wasn't the major fuel for what got us into slavery of blacks, it was without question the primary fuel for keeping the South in it.

    Thats because its common sense economics...... As for the "dig against" part, you'll have to explain how you feel it is a "dig against capitalism".
    You just answered my question. If "common sense economics" means enslaving an entire group of people, and that's the sole moral justification required for that slavery, then something is fundamentally wrong with that on a moral level.

    No. I never said it would. I was responding to a poster who was making a big deal about the colonists and others calling the africans "savages". The point was that anyone who didn't have a belief in a god and lived in a tribal type community was considered a savage... regardless of race. The comment was not pertaining to slavery, but to the use of the word savage. If I really had to explain how my comment applied to the topic in this manner, It makes me wonder what else you are misunderstanding.
    Calm down. I'm simply critiquing what you said. I do agree that Africans' tribal religions did factor into racism against them, but it wasn't the sole criterion by any stretch.

    Their way of life was to be a slave, for they failed to defend themselves from being conquered by stronger african tribes that defeated them, captured them, and sold them into slavery....
    Even if you meant this as sarcasm, this was very much part of the justification used for enslaving blacks.

    You mean the reason for slavery, which by the way, started before America was born, which by the way is the only appropriate historical context the institution of slavery in America can ever be viewed in.....
    The scale of slavery as we know it didn't really get rolling until after the Revolution. BTW, the northern states had outlawed slavery within a few decades after the Revolution. What a shame the South didn't come on board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yea: Science

    I mean you are willing to accept blacks are physically prone to high blood pressure, cycle cell anemia and asthma, but that we are not built for the African climate? We also have smaller rib cages, denser bones and narrower hips etc. Race can be identified by simple bones. So these and many other scientific facts are racist?

    Their are genetic differences between the races, this is just a scientific fact, not racism. I mean their is only what? A 95.8 to 98.9 percent difference between apes and humans, look how wide a gap that small percentage is. Why is it racist to admit physical differences exist between the races?
    You're getting into some dangerous territory here.

    First of all, the word "race" is a social construct. Always has been, always will be. "Ethnicity" is the term you're looking for in your pseudoscientific analysis.

    Second, any tiny differences between typical genetic makeup of people of African descent and European descent is vastly outweighed by what they have in common. That's why we are not classified into various subspecies.

    Third, different ethnicities have interbred, blurring the lines between them. This isn't just a recent phenomenon; there's a reason why most African-Americans have lighter skin than West Africans.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    You're getting into some dangerous territory here.

    First of all, the word "race" is a social construct. Always has been, always will be. "Ethnicity" is the term you're looking for in your pseudoscientific analysis.

    Second, any tiny differences between typical genetic makeup of people of African descent and European descent is vastly outweighed by what they have in common. That's why we are not classified into various subspecies.

    Third, different ethnicities have interbred, blurring the lines between them. This isn't just a recent phenomenon; there's a reason why most African-Americans have lighter skin than West Africans.
    You're forgetting about acclimation and the African resistance to malaria and yellow fever, that white Europeans didn't have.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition

    Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederate States of America

    Cornerstone Speech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That says literally nothing to contradict my evidence. In fact, it kinda goes to supporting what I posted.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Many good points in this post...

    Which interestingly has been ignored..........
    Thank you. I thought so to. A good source like PBS covers exactly what we are talking about and only Thunder dared to comment against it.


    Were Africans enslaved because they were thought to be inferior?

    In colonial America, Africans weren't enslaved because they were thought to be inferior. On the contrary, they were valued for their skill as farmers and desired for their labor. Planters had previously tried enslaving Native Americans, but many escaped and hid among neighboring tribes or were stricken by diseases brought to the New World by Europeans.

    In the early years of the colonies, the majority of workers were poor indentured servants from England. In fact, during Virginia's first century, 100,000 of the 130,000 Englishmen who crossed the Atlantic were indentured servants. Conditions of servitude were miserable, and nearly two thirds died before their term of indenture ended. After several decades, African slaves began arriving in the U.S. and worked side by side with indentured servants.

    Many played together, intermarried, and ran away together. Racial categories were fluid, and slavery was not yet codified into law.

    In the mid-17th century, a crisis arose in the colonies. As economic conditions in Mother England improved, the number of volunteers willing to journey across the Atlantic to endure such harsh treatment dropped dramatically, causing a labor shortage. At the same time, tension and hostilities were mounting domestically, as more servants were surviving their indenture and demanding land from the planter elite. The entire plantation labor system and colonial social hierarchy was threatened; the situation came to a head when poor servants and slaves allied and attacked the elite classes during Bacon's Rebellion.

    After the system of indentured servitude proved unstable, planters turned increasingly to African slavery and began writing laws to divide Blacks from whites. Coincidentally, African slaves became more available at this time. Poor whites were given new entitlements and opportunities, including as overseers to police the slave population. Over time, they began to identify more with wealthy whites, and the degradation of slavery became identified more and more with Blackness.


    RACE - The Power of an Illusion . Background Readings | PBS
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Thank you. I thought so to. A good source like PBS covers exactly what we are talking about and only Thunder dared to comment against it.....
    so African slavery had nothing to do with racism?

    that's like arguing the Holocaust had nothing to do with feelings of racial superiority.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Sounds to me like you believe in fundamental biological differences between races. There is a one-word term for that kind of belief
    This is an interesting comment. Aren't there fundamental biological differences? Skin. Hair. Eye color and shape. Size???

    Then we get into why Mexicans and Kenyans win all the marathons. Why? Could it be that as a race they are more used to distance and heat? I don't know but I would not call talking about it or wondering about it racism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
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