View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
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    56 57.14%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1531
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's a far cry from the 33% that you originally suggested.
    Actually its pretty much right on the money. Go back and read

    1- Yahoo answers says

    Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves.
    2 - Wikipedia says

    Only 8% of all US families owned slaves,[124] while in the South, 33% of families owned slaves and 50% of Confederate soldiers lived in slave-owning households
    3 - the book length study by Glatthaar says

    Yet more than one in every four volunteers that first year lived with parents who were slaveholders. Combining those soldiers who owned slaves with those soldiers who lived with slaveholding family members, the proportion rose to 36 percent. That contrasted starkly with the 24.9 percent, or one in every four households, that owned slaves in the South, based on the 1860 census. Thus, volunteers in 1861 were 42 percent more likely to own slaves themselves or to live with family members who owned slaves than the general population.
    4 - and the University of Virginia Census data says
    The numbers varies considerably, ranging from 1 in 5 in Arkansas to 1 in 2 in Mississippi and South Carolina. In the eleven states that formed the Confederacy, there were in aggregate just over 1 million free households, which between them represented 316,632 slaveholders—meaning that just under one-third of households in the Confederate States counted among its assets at least one human being.
    I consistently said 1/3 of family units in the South owned slaves and three of these four sources agree. The one that differs uses a number of just a hair under 25% which is a whole lot closer to 33 than your fairy tale figure of 1%. And even then that source uses 36% for slave owners in the southern army.

    In fact, if you take my four sources and find the average of the four figures - it works out to 31%. I have always claimed a one-third ownership. Your definition of the term "far cry" must be really off.

    The Glatthaar numbers shoot your argument right out of the water. You have consistently offered the line of thinking that the South could never have assembled a large army to fight if the only main issue was slavery since only a tiny number actually owned slaves. Glatthaar destroys that

    This figure, combined with the 36 percent who owned or whose family members owned slaves, indicated that almost one of every two 1861 recruits lived with slaveholders. Nor did the direct exposure stop there. Untold numbers of enlistees rented land from, sold crops to, or worked for slaveholders. In the final tabulation, the vast majority of the volunteers of 1861 had a direct connection to slavery. For slaveholder and nonslaveholder alike, slavery lay at the heart of the Confederate nation. The fact that their paper notes frequently depicted scenes of slaves demonstrated the institution's central role and symbolic value to the Confederacy.
    The facts are against you and your claims.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-26-11 at 08:00 AM.
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  2. #1532
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by posting this, but it does nothing to support your argument and it does nothing to detract from mine.

    You said, "Slaves were property because they were profitable.... not because they were black."

    Whether or not they were sold at cheap prices by Africans has zero impact on the fact that blacks were viewed as inferior by much of American society and that they were viewed as an "inferior race" that was most suitable for slavery. By saying, "not because they were black", you're trying to remove race as a factor in slavery. That's just pure revisionism.
    So... if Chinese or Arab or Western Europeans Whites were being sold for a lower price do you think the slave traders would have still decided to get african slaves as well?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  3. #1533
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Cain your info is correct but lacking in details. North Carolina in 1860 had roughly 330,000 slaves, or roughly 33% of the total population.

    Those 30,000 free blacks only represent what? 11% of the black population in NC? It was much worse in other states.

    So I think their is some truth in both your arguments.
    My argument was never about the number of negro slaves.... it was about the number of Free Persons of Color...

    The only states or territories to have more free persons of color in them than North Carolina in all of the U.S. and territories where census was gathered were Pennsylvania Ohio New York Maryland and Virginia.


    Also, interestingly enough.... Deleware, Maryland, and New Jersey all had slaves in 1860 as well.... Including Maryland having more slaves than free persons of color... while New Jersey had only 18 slaves in the whole state.

    Edit to add about Maryland..... being the state with the MOST free persons of color in it... it still managed to also have a higher number of slaves than free persons....

    83k free 87k slaves.
    Last edited by Caine; 11-26-11 at 08:31 AM.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  4. #1534
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your argument is that slave owners didn't really think blacks were inferior, they just said that to prevent an uprising from poor whites. Do you have a source that substantiates this claim? Because I'm quite certain, given what I've read on the subject, that they really believed blacks were inferior and consequently, the race that belonged in slavery more than any others.
    That idea eventually took hold after being taught to subsequent generations. It wasn't the original idea behind African slavery. It was originally that slaves could be obtained from Africa cheaper and easier than they could be obtained from anywhere else.


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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    That idea eventually took hold after being taught to subsequent generations. It wasn't the original idea behind African slavery. It was originally that slaves could be obtained from Africa cheaper and easier than they could be obtained from anywhere else.
    And it was an acceptable idea because they belived blacks were biologically inferior. ANYONE could be enslaved, it was acceptable to enslave blacks.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Usually when people make that kind of threat, it backfires on them. Just saying.
    Unless they are right of course.

    What the hell...Read the Constitution. The CSA was clearly guilty of treason against the United States.
    Keep ignoring arguments and having no counter at all. lol

  7. #1537
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    So... if Chinese or Arab or Western Europeans Whites were being sold for a lower price do you think the slave traders would have still decided to get african slaves as well?
    Problem was, that isn't even relevant. They did have some standards of decency, just not enough of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Unless they are right of course.

    Keep ignoring arguments and having no counter at all. lol
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  8. #1538
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    That idea eventually took hold after being taught to subsequent generations. It wasn't the original idea behind African slavery. It was originally that slaves could be obtained from Africa cheaper and easier than they could be obtained from anywhere else.
    Not only that, Africa was the only place where people were selling their own people into slavery.

    Basically, the Africans had a product to sell and customers with a demand for that product showed up to purchase it. Had the product n been available, the labor demand would have been filled another way.

    The cutomers weren't just white southern plantation owners. The Arabs bought as many slaves as the Europeans, probably more.
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  9. #1539
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    My argument was never about the number of negro slaves.... it was about the number of Free Persons of Color...

    The only states or territories to have more free persons of color in them than North Carolina in all of the U.S. and territories where census was gathered were Pennsylvania Ohio New York Maryland and Virginia.


    Also, interestingly enough.... Deleware, Maryland, and New Jersey all had slaves in 1860 as well.... Including Maryland having more slaves than free persons of color... while New Jersey had only 18 slaves in the whole state.

    Edit to add about Maryland..... being the state with the MOST free persons of color in it... it still managed to also have a higher number of slaves than free persons....

    83k free 87k slaves.
    I understand but it's kind of hard to agree when out of roughly 360,000 blacks, 30,000 were free. It like saying well 100 people out of 100,000 survived! What great news! Hehehehe.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by snilloctjc View Post
    And it was an acceptable idea because they belived blacks were biologically inferior. ANYONE could be enslaved, it was acceptable to enslave blacks.
    Because of culture, not because of race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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