View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
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    56 57.14%
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    6 6.12%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1521
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Caine - where are you getting those North Carolina figures from? Please provide a verifiable source as the numbers you gave are completely out of sync with everything I have ever seen from reputable sources. The only stuff which might agree with this is white supremacist sources of the type quoted by another poster on this site who uses that nonsense an no reputable site will accept it.
    Show your sources then.... Why am I the only one who has to?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Show your sources then.... Why am I the only one who has to?
    Because you are the one who listed the numbers.

    Here is info I printed several times in reply to apdst who claimed that only 1% owned slaves - a number closer to your number.


    Here is the information from yahoo answers

    Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. The total number of slave owners was 385,000 (including, in Louisiana, some free Negroes). As for the number of slaves owned by each master, 88% held fewer than twenty, and nearly 50% held fewer than five. (A complete table on slave-owning percentages is given at the bottom of this page.)

    For comparison's sake, let it be noted that in the 1950's, only 2% of American families owned corporation stocks equal in value to the 1860 value of a single slave. Thus, slave ownership was much more widespread in the South than corporate investment was in 1950's America.

    On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.

    Lets look at other sources that confirm this information.

    1- this article on Wikipedia uses the source Distribution of Slaves in US History

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery...tion_of_slaves

    it confirms the numbers from yahoo answers as follows:

    Only 8% of all US families owned slaves,[124] while in the South, 33% of families owned slaves and 50% of Confederate soldiers lived in slave-owning households
    This book length excellent study of the soldiers who made up the confederate army confirms the information

    http://www.amazon.com/General-Lees-A...6825358&sr=1-1

    Even more revealing was their attachment to slavery. Among the enlistees in 1861, slightly more than one in ten owned slaves personally. This compared favorably to the Confederacy as a whole, in which one in every twenty white persons owned slaves. Yet more than one in every four volunteers that first year lived with parents who were slaveholders. Combining those soldiers who owned slaves with those soldiers who lived with slaveholding family members, the proportion rose to 36 percent. That contrasted starkly with the 24.9 percent, or one in every four households, that owned slaves in the South, based on the 1860 census. Thus, volunteers in 1861 were 42 percent more likely to own slaves themselves or to live with family members who owned slaves than the general population.
    The attachment to slavery, though, was even more powerful. One in every ten volunteers in 1861 did not own slaves themselves but lived in households headed by non family members who did. This figure, combined with the 36 percent who owned or whose family members owned slaves, indicated that almost one of every two 1861 recruits lived with slaveholders. Nor did the direct exposure stop there. Untold numbers of enlistees rented land from, sold crops to, or worked for slaveholders. In the final tabulation, the vast majority of the volunteers of 1861 had a direct connection to slavery. For slaveholder and nonslaveholder alike, slavery lay at the heart of the Confederate nation. The fact that their paper notes frequently depicted scenes of slaves demonstrated the institution's central role and symbolic value to the Confederacy.
    More than half the officers in 1861 owned slaves, and none of them lived with family members who were slaveholders. Their substantial median combined wealth ($5,600) and average combined wealth ($8,979) mirrored that high proportion of slave ownership. By comparison, only one in twelve enlisted men owned slaves, but when those who lived with family slave owners were included, the ratio exceeded one in three. That was 40 percent above the tally for all households in the Old South. With the inclusion of those who resided in nonfamily slaveholding households, the direct exposure to bondage among enlisted personnel was four of every nine. Enlisted men owned less wealth, with combined levels of $1,125 for the median and $7,079 for the average, but those numbers indicated a fairly comfortable standard of living. Proportionately, far more officers were likely to be professionals in civil life, and their age difference, about four years older than enlisted men, reflected their greater accumulated wealth.
    The Historic Census Browser from the University of Virginia also confirms the numbers from yahoo answers that you are so disparaging of

    http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/
    here is a description of their findings

    The Historical Census Browser from the University of Virginia Library allows users to compile, sort and visualize data from U.S. Censuses from 1790 to 1960. For Glatthaar's purposes and ours, the 1860 census, taken a few months before the outbreak of the war, is crucial. It records basic data about the free population, including names, sex, approximate age, occupation and value of real and personal property of each person in a household. A second, separate schedule records the name of each slaveholder and lists the slave he or she owns. Each slave is listed by sex and age; names were not recorded. The data in the UofV online system can be broken down either by state or counties within a state, and make it possible to compare one data element (e.g., households) with another (slaveholders) and calculate the proportions between them.

    In the vast majority of cases, each household (termed a "family" in the 1860 document, even when the group consisted of unrelated people living in the same residence) that owned slaves had only one slaveholder listed, the head of the household. It is thus possible to compare the number of slaveholders in a given state to the numbers of families/households, and get a rough estimation of the proportion of free households that owned at least one slave. The numbers varies considerably, ranging from 1 in 5 in Arkansas to 1 in 2 in Mississippi and South Carolina. In the eleven states that formed the Confederacy, there were in aggregate just over 1 million free households, which between them represented 316,632 slaveholders—meaning that just under one-third of households in the Confederate States counted among its assets at least one human being.
    All this indicates your NC numbers are really out of sync.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-25-11 at 10:21 PM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Crap my statistics were off!!!! Posting the site now...
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/php/state.php

    N
    orth Carolina:

    Total Slaveholders: 34,658
    Total Free Colored: 30,463


    The difference was still the same.... I was just in the 10s of thousands when the actual was in the 30s
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    That one didn't work right....

    University of Virginia Library

    Should work better
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/php/state.php

    N
    orth Carolina:

    Total Slaveholders: 34,658
    Total Free Colored: 30,463


    The difference was still the same.... I was just in the 10s of thousands when the actual was in the 30s
    and how many slaves?

  7. #1527
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    That one didn't work right....

    University of Virginia Library

    Should work better
    Cain your info is correct but lacking in details. North Carolina in 1860 had roughly 330,000 slaves, or roughly 33% of the total population.

    Those 30,000 free blacks only represent what? 11% of the black population in NC? It was much worse in other states.

    So I think their is some truth in both your arguments.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 11-25-11 at 11:38 PM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    The fact that they were originally sold into slavery from conquering african tribes at the low price of Rum, making them a cheap investment had absolutely nothing to do with it......... *shrug*
    I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by posting this, but it does nothing to support your argument and it does nothing to detract from mine.

    You said, "Slaves were property because they were profitable.... not because they were black."

    Whether or not they were sold at cheap prices by Africans has zero impact on the fact that blacks were viewed as inferior by much of American society and that they were viewed as an "inferior race" that was most suitable for slavery. By saying, "not because they were black", you're trying to remove race as a factor in slavery. That's just pure revisionism.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Because you are the one who listed the numbers.

    Here is info I printed several times in reply to apdst who claimed that only 1% owned slaves - a number closer to your number.


    Here is the information from yahoo answers




    Lets look at other sources that confirm this information.

    1- this article on Wikipedia uses the source Distribution of Slaves in US History

    Slavery in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    it confirms the numbers from yahoo answers as follows:



    This book length excellent study of the soldiers who made up the confederate army confirms the information

    Amazon.com: General Lee's Army: From Victory to Collapse (9781416596974): Joseph Glatthaar: Books


    The Historic Census Browser from the University of Virginia also confirms the numbers from yahoo answers that you are so disparaging of

    University of Virginia Library
    here is a description of their findings



    All this indicates your NC numbers are really out of sync.
    That's a far cry from the 33% that you originally suggested.
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  10. #1530
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    What about those who shed their blood to stay free of political oppression from the more populous north? Many writings made at the time made it clear that the southern states knew they were a "permanent minority" in the legislature.
    Not this again...Seriously, this sounds like we're debating the Missouri Compromise. The slave states deserved no sympathy, period.

    Sorry, but we had yet to go through the "Nationalism" movement, thus this Loyalty to the United States of America argument is moot. Back in these days it was about STATES that were United... not THE United States. Historical Perspective please....
    What the hell...Read the Constitution. The CSA was clearly guilty of treason against the United States.

    You can keep jumping up and down screaming racist institution.... but the institution of slavery wasn't about RACISM... it was about PROFIT. The northern folks were just as racist as the southerners..... (still are), there was just a loud movement based around the MORAL argument of owning another person.
    How many slaves were White?
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