View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
  • No

    56 57.14%
  • I don't know.

    6 6.12%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1411
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    If you mean "his" and not "your," I agree. Or is their a gap in the logic of my anti-Confederacy position?



    BINGO. We, as American citizens, have every right to disagree with a Court decision. But we do not have the right to disobey it. Texas v. White is a legally binding precedent, whether the sympathizers want to admit it or not. When it comes to the legality of secession, there is absolutely nothing to debate. It makes about as much sense to argue that the Earth is flat or that gravity doesn't exist.
    Yes, when I refer to YOUR in that line to Henrin I am speaking to his ideas and his posts. Sorry if I was not clear or (worse) clumsy in my structure.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and the same thing applies to apdst


    In all fairness to you, what you fail to realize is this
    1- your post was read
    2- your ideas were considered
    3- they were dealt with and discussed
    4- your points were dismissed as less than valid or irrelevant or just plain wrong in the context of history
    5- you are simply incorrect
    You failed to prove me wrong. You et. al. simply resorted to personal attacks and insults, oh and YahooAnswers, as your proof that I'm wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #1413
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You failed to prove me wrong. You et. al. simply resorted to personal attacks and insults, oh and YahooAnswers, as your proof that I'm wrong.
    Prove you wrong in what way... on what issue? You through out these vague and meaningless all sweeping statements and they just sit there like a fifty pound burrito.


    apdst - your repeated whining about using yahoo answers as a source is at best humorous and at worst rather sad.

    The information I took from it was regarding just who in the South owned slaves. Here is the information from yahoo answers

    Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. The total number of slave owners was 385,000 (including, in Louisiana, some free Negroes). As for the number of slaves owned by each master, 88% held fewer than twenty, and nearly 50% held fewer than five. (A complete table on slave-owning percentages is given at the bottom of this page.)

    For comparison's sake, let it be noted that in the 1950's, only 2% of American families owned corporation stocks equal in value to the 1860 value of a single slave. Thus, slave ownership was much more widespread in the South than corporate investment was in 1950's America.

    On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.


    You do not like this because it disagrees with your white supremacist sites and the ravings of convicted murderers that you use for your supposed numbers.

    However, before you go attacking yahoo answers, lets see what other sources say about the validity of this information

    1- this article on Wikipedia uses the source Distribution of Slaves in US History

    Slavery in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    it confirms the numbers from yahoo answers as follows:

    Only 8% of all US families owned slaves,[124] while in the South, 33% of families owned slaves and 50% of Confederate soldiers lived in slave-owning households

    2 - This book length excellent study of the soldiers who made up the confederate army confirms the information

    http://www.amazon.com/General-Lees-A...6825358&sr=1-1

    Even more revealing was their attachment to slavery. Among the enlistees in 1861, slightly more than one in ten owned slaves personally. This compared favorably to the Confederacy as a whole, in which one in every twenty white persons owned slaves. Yet more than one in every four volunteers that first year lived with parents who were slaveholders. Combining those soldiers who owned slaves with those soldiers who lived with slaveholding family members, the proportion rose to 36 percent. That contrasted starkly with the 24.9 percent, or one in every four households, that owned slaves in the South, based on the 1860 census. Thus, volunteers in 1861 were 42 percent more likely to own slaves themselves or to live with family members who owned slaves than the general population.
    The attachment to slavery, though, was even more powerful. One in every ten volunteers in 1861 did not own slaves themselves but lived in households headed by non family members who did. This figure, combined with the 36 percent who owned or whose family members owned slaves, indicated that almost one of every two 1861 recruits lived with slaveholders. Nor did the direct exposure stop there. Untold numbers of enlistees rented land from, sold crops to, or worked for slaveholders. In the final tabulation, the vast majority of the volunteers of 1861 had a direct connection to slavery. For slaveholder and nonslaveholder alike, slavery lay at the heart of the Confederate nation. The fact that their paper notes frequently depicted scenes of slaves demonstrated the institution's central role and symbolic value to the Confederacy.
    More than half the officers in 1861 owned slaves, and none of them lived with family members who were slaveholders. Their substantial median combined wealth ($5,600) and average combined wealth ($8,979) mirrored that high proportion of slave ownership. By comparison, only one in twelve enlisted men owned slaves, but when those who lived with family slave owners were included, the ratio exceeded one in three. That was 40 percent above the tally for all households in the Old South. With the inclusion of those who resided in nonfamily slaveholding households, the direct exposure to bondage among enlisted personnel was four of every nine. Enlisted men owned less wealth, with combined levels of $1,125 for the median and $7,079 for the average, but those numbers indicated a fairly comfortable standard of living. Proportionately, far more officers were likely to be professionals in civil life, and their age difference, about four years older than enlisted men, reflected their greater accumulated wealth.

    3 -The Historic Census Browser from the University of Virginia also confirms the numbers from yahoo answers that you are so disparaging of

    University of Virginia Library
    here is a description of their findings

    The Historical Census Browser from the University of Virginia Library allows users to compile, sort and visualize data from U.S. Censuses from 1790 to 1960. For Glatthaar's purposes and ours, the 1860 census, taken a few months before the outbreak of the war, is crucial. It records basic data about the free population, including names, sex, approximate age, occupation and value of real and personal property of each person in a household. A second, separate schedule records the name of each slaveholder and lists the slave he or she owns. Each slave is listed by sex and age; names were not recorded. The data in the UofV online system can be broken down either by state or counties within a state, and make it possible to compare one data element (e.g., households) with another (slaveholders) and calculate the proportions between them.

    In the vast majority of cases, each household (termed a "family" in the 1860 document, even when the group consisted of unrelated people living in the same residence) that owned slaves had only one slaveholder listed, the head of the household. It is thus possible to compare the number of slaveholders in a given state to the numbers of families/households, and get a rough estimation of the proportion of free households that owned at least one slave. The numbers varies considerably, ranging from 1 in 5 in Arkansas to 1 in 2 in Mississippi and South Carolina. In the eleven states that formed the Confederacy, there were in aggregate just over 1 million free households, which between them represented 316,632 slaveholders—meaning that just under one-third of households in the Confederate States counted among its assets at least one human being.

    So there you have three different sources of information, all mainstream respected sources - NOT white supremacist sites written by murderers and extremists - which confirm the information from yahoo answers.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-22-11 at 04:39 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You get what you put out.
    I put out nothing but respect for you... some only see what they want to see buddy boy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Already did. You argued the flag only means X where X is what Southerners claim it is. If it only means X, it can't mean Y where Y is what non-Southerners are arguing it is.


    What is this question? It means everything that it is just like the Confederate flag does - good and bad.
    That is why I said I am not a Southerner... why is that relevant, because it is not just Southerners that think that the Confederate Flag can be a non-racist non-treasonist non-slavery wanting symbol. So you did not. You assumed or made some other false presumption about why i said what I said instead of dealing with the issue. The issue is perception of the flag by all people, not just Southerners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I put out nothing but respect for you... some only see what they want to see buddy boy.
    Tell that to yourself sweetheart.

  7. #1417
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You assumed or made some other false presumption about why i said what I said instead of dealing with the issue.
    Let's look at what you said then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The Confederate Flag is simply a symbol of the South... of Dixie. It is about being proud of that fact.
    Don't make more of it is than it actually is... we have enough real problems in the world without manufacturing them.
    Let me amend my statement from

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Oh I see, so only Southerners can have a valid opinion of the Confederate Flag. I think not.

    It's a symbol of treason, slavery and racism in addition to a symbol of people's history, states' rights and whatever else.
    To

    Oh I see, so any opinion that holds the CF is anything other than "simply a symbol of the South" is "making more than it is". I think not.

    It's a symbol of treason, slavery and racism in addition to a symbol of people's history, states' rights and whatever else.


    It doesn't matter how you twist it. Your comment is just as ridiculous now as it was when you posted it.

  8. #1418
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Tell that to yourself sweetheart.
    WOW... ridiculously childish behaviour at its finest! Good for you...

    Oh I see, so any opinion that holds the CF is anything other than "simply a symbol of the South" is "making more than it is". I think not.

    It's a symbol of treason, slavery and racism in addition to a symbol of people's history, states' rights and whatever else.


    It doesn't matter how you twist it. Your comment is just as ridiculous now as it was when you posted it.
    It is about perception and context. Two things that are beyond your ability to discern apparently.

    Your thoughts only promote hate. Your thoughts only promote division. Your thoughts are a pathetic thing that only moral evolution could eradicate. Once you evolve intellectually and morally you will one day see how trivial your opinion once was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Let's turn things around a little: is the Confederate flag a symbol of patriotism for and loyalty to, the United States?

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    WOW... ridiculously childish behaviour at its finest! Good for you....
    That's weird, because my comment was directly in response to you saying:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I put out nothing but respect for you... some only see what they want to see buddy boy.
    Like I said, you get what you put out. So your drivel ridden response to me means one of two things: You're either dishonest or trolling. Either one completely changes my perception of you and puts your posts on the "not serious or intelligent" list. Have fun with that.

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