View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1371
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Your first point: You said that if it's not in the Constitution, the federal government can't do it. That means that they can't prosecute people in federal courts for said crimes,
    This is correct. The states reserved nearly all police powers to themselves when they established their compact. They did give their federal government the power to punish piracy and treason, for example. Other than those few exceptions, the federal government was delegated no police powers.

    and since the Tenth Amendment allows states to do whatever they want, then if said state doesn't prosecute them, murder and arson could be legal.
    Yes, and if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.

    You (plural) have repeatedly claimed that secession is legal simply because the Constitution doesn't explicitly forbid it.
    This is correct. The federal government may only exercise its delegated powers. It was never delegated any power to restrict exit from the federation, which, based on the 10th amendment, implies that this power was reserved by the states.

    What you (plural) don't want to admit is that not only did Texas v. White explicitly rule that secession was, is, and will always be a violation of the law, it also ruled that legally it wasn't even legitimate. Secession was absolutely void, meaning that strictly from a legal point-of-view, it never happened in the first place. Only revisionists such as yourself would claim otherwise.
    No kidding? You mean the federal government decided that secession was illegal? That's a shocker.

    And what section and clause did they cite to support their opinion?

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Maybe I should use YahooAnswers, like you did.

    Whatever, my man!
    What are you raving about? Do you even know? You have said this many times and I have asked for clarification many times and you just keep regurgitating the same line over and over again.

    For you to use something like Yahoo Answers - information which can be collaborated and verified in many other mainstream sources of information - would be a giant step up in your efforts to support your claims. It would be a whole lot better than using the racist rantings of a convicted first degree murderer serving a life sentence in prison in Indiana who can only get his unverified nonsense put up on a Aryan white power site.

    Yes indeed , yahoo answers would be like you using the Encyclopedia Britannica after that one.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-22-11 at 08:10 AM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In 1869!! Goddamn! Why is it so hard for you get a grip on that?!?

    If you're right and it was so ****ing obvious that secession was un-constitutional, the decision would have been made when New England attempted to secede in 1804.
    News Bulletin for you : The US Supreme Court decides many many questions of law long after the event has occurred and even has concluded. That is the nature of the beast. It is utterly ridiculous for you and anyone else here to keep whining about the date the secession took place and the later date that the White case was decided. It is completely and totally irrelevant in law and in history.

    The only thing that is relevant to the discussion about the White ruling is that the Court did decide and did issue a ruling and did decide the issue and that is now the precedent and is the law in the matter.

    Some here badly need to both get familiar with how the real world works and what is relevant and what is not relevant in determining the legality of actions.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    apdst - your repeated whining about using yahoo answers as a source is at best humorous and at worst rather sad.

    The information I took from it was regarding just who in the South owned slaves. Here is the information from yahoo answers

    Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. The total number of slave owners was 385,000 (including, in Louisiana, some free Negroes). As for the number of slaves owned by each master, 88% held fewer than twenty, and nearly 50% held fewer than five. (A complete table on slave-owning percentages is given at the bottom of this page.)

    For comparison's sake, let it be noted that in the 1950's, only 2% of American families owned corporation stocks equal in value to the 1860 value of a single slave. Thus, slave ownership was much more widespread in the South than corporate investment was in 1950's America.

    On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.

    You do not like this because it disagrees with your white supremacist sites and the ravings of convicted murderers that you use for your supposed numbers.

    However, before you go attacking yahoo answers, lets see what other sources say about the validity of this information

    1- this article on Wikipedia uses the source Distribution of Slaves in US History

    Slavery in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    it confirms the numbers from yahoo answers as follows:

    Only 8% of all US families owned slaves,[124] while in the South, 33% of families owned slaves and 50% of Confederate soldiers lived in slave-owning households
    2 - This book length excellent study of the soldiers who made up the confederate army confirms the information

    http://www.amazon.com/General-Lees-A...6825358&sr=1-1

    Even more revealing was their attachment to slavery. Among the enlistees in 1861, slightly more than one in ten owned slaves personally. This compared favorably to the Confederacy as a whole, in which one in every twenty white persons owned slaves. Yet more than one in every four volunteers that first year lived with parents who were slaveholders. Combining those soldiers who owned slaves with those soldiers who lived with slaveholding family members, the proportion rose to 36 percent. That contrasted starkly with the 24.9 percent, or one in every four households, that owned slaves in the South, based on the 1860 census. Thus, volunteers in 1861 were 42 percent more likely to own slaves themselves or to live with family members who owned slaves than the general population.
    The attachment to slavery, though, was even more powerful. One in every ten volunteers in 1861 did not own slaves themselves but lived in households headed by non family members who did. This figure, combined with the 36 percent who owned or whose family members owned slaves, indicated that almost one of every two 1861 recruits lived with slaveholders. Nor did the direct exposure stop there. Untold numbers of enlistees rented land from, sold crops to, or worked for slaveholders. In the final tabulation, the vast majority of the volunteers of 1861 had a direct connection to slavery. For slaveholder and nonslaveholder alike, slavery lay at the heart of the Confederate nation. The fact that their paper notes frequently depicted scenes of slaves demonstrated the institution's central role and symbolic value to the Confederacy.
    More than half the officers in 1861 owned slaves, and none of them lived with family members who were slaveholders. Their substantial median combined wealth ($5,600) and average combined wealth ($8,979) mirrored that high proportion of slave ownership. By comparison, only one in twelve enlisted men owned slaves, but when those who lived with family slave owners were included, the ratio exceeded one in three. That was 40 percent above the tally for all households in the Old South. With the inclusion of those who resided in nonfamily slaveholding households, the direct exposure to bondage among enlisted personnel was four of every nine. Enlisted men owned less wealth, with combined levels of $1,125 for the median and $7,079 for the average, but those numbers indicated a fairly comfortable standard of living. Proportionately, far more officers were likely to be professionals in civil life, and their age difference, about four years older than enlisted men, reflected their greater accumulated wealth.
    3 -The Historic Census Browser from the University of Virginia also confirms the numbers from yahoo answers that you are so disparaging of

    University of Virginia Library
    here is a description of their findings

    The Historical Census Browser from the University of Virginia Library allows users to compile, sort and visualize data from U.S. Censuses from 1790 to 1960. For Glatthaar's purposes and ours, the 1860 census, taken a few months before the outbreak of the war, is crucial. It records basic data about the free population, including names, sex, approximate age, occupation and value of real and personal property of each person in a household. A second, separate schedule records the name of each slaveholder and lists the slave he or she owns. Each slave is listed by sex and age; names were not recorded. The data in the UofV online system can be broken down either by state or counties within a state, and make it possible to compare one data element (e.g., households) with another (slaveholders) and calculate the proportions between them.

    In the vast majority of cases, each household (termed a "family" in the 1860 document, even when the group consisted of unrelated people living in the same residence) that owned slaves had only one slaveholder listed, the head of the household. It is thus possible to compare the number of slaveholders in a given state to the numbers of families/households, and get a rough estimation of the proportion of free households that owned at least one slave. The numbers varies considerably, ranging from 1 in 5 in Arkansas to 1 in 2 in Mississippi and South Carolina. In the eleven states that formed the Confederacy, there were in aggregate just over 1 million free households, which between them represented 316,632 slaveholders—meaning that just under one-third of households in the Confederate States counted among its assets at least one human being.
    So there you have three different sources of information, all mainstream respected sources - NOT white supremacist sites written by murderers and extremists - which confirm the information from yahoo answers.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    News Bulletin for you : The US Supreme Court decides many many questions of law long after the event has occurred and even has concluded. That is the nature of the beast. It is utterly ridiculous for you and anyone else here to keep whining about the date the secession took place and the later date that the White case was decided. It is completely and totally irrelevant in law and in history.

    The only thing that is relevant to the discussion about the White ruling is that the Court did decide and did issue a ruling and did decide the issue and that is now the precedent and is the law in the matter.

    Some here badly need to both get familiar with how the real world works and what is relevant and what is not relevant in determining the legality of actions.
    I see you ignored the New England secession point...
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I see you ignored the New England secession point...
    there is actually nothing to consider. This from the wikipedia article on secession regarding these 'events' or non-events

    New England Federalists and Hartford Convention
    The election of 1800 saw Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party on the rise with the Federalists in decline. Federalists became alarmed at what they saw as threats from the Democratic-Republicans. The Louisiana Purchase was viewed as a violation of the original agreement between the original thirteen states since it created the potential for numerous new states that would be dominated by the Democratic-Republicans. The impeachment of John Pickering, a Federalist district judge, by the Democratic-Republican dominated Congress and similar attacks by the Democratic-Republican Pennsylvania legislature against that state's judiciary further alarmed Federalists. By 1804, the viable base of the Federalist Party had been reduced to the states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Delaware.[40]
    A few Federalists, led by Timothy Pickering of Massachusetts, considered the creation of a separate New England confederation, possibly combining with lower Canada to form a pro-British nation. Historian Richard Buell, Jr., characterizes these separatist musings:
    Most participants in the explorations—it can hardly be called a plot since it never took concrete form—focused on the domestic obstacles to consummating their fantasy. These included lack of popular support for such a scheme in the region. ... The secessionist movement of 1804 was more of a confession of despair about the future than a realistic proposal for action.[41]
    That pretty much says it all.

    No secession in 1804 - no need for a court ruling on secession since it did not happen. When it did happen, the Court ruled on it in White.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    No kidding? You mean the federal government decided that secession was illegal? That's a shocker.

    And what section and clause did they cite to support their opinion?
    Texas v. White
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I think it's time to sum this thread up:
    Pro-history side-
    - The north engaged in unfair trade practices and the location of the railroads
    - The south tried to use diplomacy
    - The slavery issue came up
    - The south seceeded because of all factors combined
    - The north occupied territory
    - The south issued a warning and attacked but probably should have furthered diplomacy
    - Both sides were wrong

    The pro-North Side-
    - The south was wrong
    - Because we say so
    - We don't need evidence
    - North Good South Bad.

    Does this sound about accurate?
    That you must blatantly make up arguments for and distort the arguments of the other side illustrates that you understand the legitimacy of our arguments. If our actual arguments were so stupid, you would have written them down so that others could see the actual comparison to your own arguments are marvel at the stupidity ours when placed against your own. You chose to make up and grossly simplify arguments instead, but rather than reaching down to your level and doing the same to you, I'm just going to re-post our actual arguments since I'm confident that they stand better against your actual ones - without manipulation.

    Actual arguments made by us:

    1. The Supreme Court ruled secession illegal in Texas v. White and declared that the Confederacy never existed as an independent nation.
    2. The Supreme Court ruled the Confederacy was treasonous in Sprott v. United States.
    3. The Supreme Court ruled the Confederacy an illegal organization in Williams v. Bruffy.
    4. President Lincoln, Chief Justice Chase and others referred to Confederate actions as treason.
    5. Lincoln and others referred to the war as a "civil war" not as a war between nations illustrating their belief that the Confederacy was not a separate nation.
    6. The majority of reasons for the Civil War, if not slavery itself, revolved around slavery. These issues include the economy, state's rights, increasing power of federal government and Lincoln's election.
    7. Because of the nature of property, the rightful "owner" of Ft. Sumter in dependent upon which side you sympathize with. However, because the Confederacy fired the first shots, they were the aggressor and thus began the Civil War.

    Re-Post of Your Counter Arguments as You Presented them:

    - The north engaged in unfair trade practices and the location of the railroads
    - The south tried to use diplomacy
    - The slavery issue came up
    - The south seceeded because of all factors combined
    - The north occupied territory
    - The south issued a warning and attacked but probably should have furthered diplomacy
    - Both sides were wrong

    I think our arguments do quite well against yours when represented honestly.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 11-22-11 at 10:32 AM.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Texas v. White has probably been posted in this thread over 20 times. If he doesn't remember now, he's probably not going to acknowledge it.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Yes, Texas v. White. So I've heard.

    And what section and clause did the court cite in finding that the federal government was delegated the power to restrict the withdrawal of states from the union? Anyone? Bueller...?

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