View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
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    56 57.14%
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    6 6.12%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1351
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    First of all, murder and arson are not charges that can be brought up against a state, this is the first logical fallacy. Second, murder and arson being individual charges can be brought up against and individual through state laws and due process. As well the Federal government does have laws against individuals destroying federal property or committing murder against federal employees or within federal properties and that is perfectly legal, it falls under the defense clause. That is your second logical fallacy. Third, your appeal to the court. A law cannot be declared ex post facto. If you don't know what this means an american court cannot retroactively apply punishment in the U.S. for actions committed before a law or judgement was passed. In other words the U.S. could not declare that a legal act post war was illegal and that decision could not stand. As a matter of fact there are STILL state secession discussions. That is your final logical fallacy, appeal to authority can not stand on it's own, especially considering the authority in question tends to reverse itself on occasion.
    Your first point: You said that if it's not in the Constitution, the federal government can't do it. That means that they can't prosecute people in federal courts for said crimes, and since the Tenth Amendment allows states to do whatever they want, then if said state doesn't prosecute them, murder and arson could be legal. Second, if we allow people to form their own versions of what's constitutionally valid, then people could start having lynch mobs again and call that "due process," thus rendering your Fourteenth Amendment argument moot. (You Confederate sympathizers should be very, very careful how you use that amendment in your arguments, by the way.) Third, you try to accuse me of a fallacy while making one of your own. You (plural) have repeatedly claimed that secession is legal simply because the Constitution doesn't explicitly forbid it.

    What you (plural) don't want to admit is that not only did Texas v. White explicitly rule that secession was, is, and will always be a violation of the law, it also ruled that legally it wasn't even legitimate. Secession was absolutely void, meaning that strictly from a legal point-of-view, it never happened in the first place. Only revisionists such as yourself would claim otherwise.

    The only people attempting deflection are those trying to maintain that the north was 100% correct. The facts have been presented and shrugged off by people who don't want to admit that maybe they didn't get the whole story on the Civil War. But if you want to maintain your stance.....whatev.
    Nice strawman. I never said that the United States (we should stop calling it the Union already. That's an outdated term.) never did anything wrong. Hell, while they were fending off the Confederacy, they were oppressing the Natives out west. Fighting for liberty on one front, fighting against it on another.

    Ah yes. More simplifying. Slavery was a sub-issue and the last straw, many writings from the north of the time even say that abolition was a sub-issue to their desire of maintaining the Union. So we can retire that argument.
    You lie. Slavery was THE core issue. "States rights" was nothing more than an expedient catchphrase designed to defend an inherently racist and oppressive institution. Again, you revisionists make comments such as these because you want people to take their eyes off that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    When did that happen?
    Already answered multiple times. Texas v. White.

    Why do ya'll insist on labeling those who don't buy into your PC revised version of history, "Confederate sympathizers", or, "slavery apologists"?
    Get the plank out of your eye before you try to get the speck out of ours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Laws can and do exist outside of the Constitution, and in the case of murder and arson the State is not only not allowed to deprive anybody of life liberty or property, but lawmakers have made laws that make average citizens depriving others of life liberty or property illegal.
    But that's the federal government that you're talking about. States can do just about anything they want, because the Tenth Amendment says so. And anything the federal government does to stop that is a government takeover.

    Slavery was the issue that brought up States Rights... so the real issue was actually: States vs Federal Rights.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.
    You lie. Don't direct us away from the real issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Here's the deal. A symbol can be different for different people.

    The flag most certainly has meant racism, treason, slavery etc. to people in history - both in the Civil War era and more recent times. One can consider a symbol of something else, if you want. But it's been hijacked by the racists (much like the Nazis hijacked the swastika) and now you use it at your peril. A new symbol might be a good idea.
    Totally agree.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  2. #1352
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Your first point: You said that if it's not in the Constitution, the federal government can't do it. That means that they can't prosecute people in federal courts for said crimes, and since the Tenth Amendment allows states to do whatever they want, then if said state doesn't prosecute them, murder and arson could be legal. Second, if we allow people to form their own versions of what's constitutionally valid, then people could start having lynch mobs again and call that "due process," thus rendering your Fourteenth Amendment argument moot. (You Confederate sympathizers should be very, very careful how you use that amendment in your arguments, by the way.) Third, you try to accuse me of a fallacy while making one of your own. You (plural) have repeatedly claimed that secession is legal simply because the Constitution doesn't explicitly forbid it.
    1) The constitution provides the duty of the federal government, not the right to provide for the common defense. This would mean that the federal does have the right to make laws regarding the illicit taking of life or destruction of federal property. Had the defense of the nation not been included you may have a point. 2) States cannot "do whatever they want" and neither can the federal. All powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states. This means that the states may go above what the federal sets as a bare minimum, and that the federal must not encroach on rights where they have no powers. 3) Lynch mobs are not protected rights under any stretch of constitutional interpretation so no, they wouldn't be legal. 4) There is no right of the U.S. or power delegated to it to enforce Union, and at the same time there is no disbarrment from the states leaving the Union. If there were your side would have honored the request to cite the specific Article, Section, and phrasing to that end. We are all still waiting for that. 5) Appeal to the court is usually weak when arguing the constitution for a multitude of reasons. The most important being that while their decisions carry the weight of law the court does reverse itself on occasion, so therefore your reasoning based solely on their decisions is on shaky ground, the next point at which this fails is that it was an Ex Post Facto decision which is why there were no filed treason charges. You see, when there was no law fitting the definition of treason no charges would have been upheld. 6) Until you can make this case strongly without charges of racism, and apologism, and revisionism based on more than logical fallacies you cannot hope to be taken seriously, I'm not trying to be rude but them's the facts.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #1353
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Awwwww. Whassa matter? You can't counter with anything so you try to discredit us? Come on I thought you were better than that.
    I don't have to try. You've already done it yourself.

  4. #1354
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I don't have to try. You've already done it yourself.
    Keep telling yourself that. I won't stop you from thinking you're right.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  5. #1355
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    1) The constitution provides the duty of the federal government, not the right to provide for the common defense. This would mean that the federal does have the right to make laws regarding the illicit taking of life or destruction of federal property. Had the defense of the nation not been included you may have a point. 2) States cannot "do whatever they want" and neither can the federal. All powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states. This means that the states may go above what the federal sets as a bare minimum, and that the federal must not encroach on rights where they have no powers.
    But what in the Constitution is to prevent states from overreaching their powers?

    3) Lynch mobs are not protected rights under any stretch of constitutional interpretation so no, they wouldn't be legal. 4) There is no right of the U.S. or power delegated to it to enforce Union, and at the same time there is no disbarrment from the states leaving the Union. If there were your side would have honored the request to cite the specific Article, Section, and phrasing to that end. We are all still waiting for that.
    Complete and utter BS. Why are you continuing to raise a point that I have thoroughly debunked?

    5) Appeal to the court is usually weak when arguing the constitution for a multitude of reasons. The most important being that while their decisions carry the weight of law the court does reverse itself on occasion, so therefore your reasoning based solely on their decisions is on shaky ground, the next point at which this fails is that it was an Ex Post Facto decision which is why there were no filed treason charges. You see, when there was no law fitting the definition of treason no charges would have been upheld.
    None of this is relevant. I pointed to the court's decision to gain the legal high ground, not the moral one. Not once did I claim that secession was morally wrong, though I certainly believe that, and the ball is in the court of those who think it is justifiable. But legally speaking, secession by any state is not allowed, period, end of discussion. What you are trying to do is akin to arguing that the world is flat, and I seriously wish you guys would stop trying to beat this dead horse.

    6) Until you can make this case strongly without charges of racism, and apologism, and revisionism based on more than logical fallacies you cannot hope to be taken seriously, I'm not trying to be rude but them's the facts.
    In your opinion. You don't want the issue of racism to surface, because you and I both know that that would undermine your credibility in this argument. The problem is that due to the roots of the Confederacy, and the root cause of the Civil War, the racism issue is not going to go away until you address it head-on. But you refuse to do that. The lies, deception and propaganda I am seeing in this thread from the Conservative sympathizers approach a level of insane propaganda not seen since the days of Nazi Germany. "States rights" as a primary cause of the Civil War--LOL, what a pathetic lie.

    Furthermore, I fail to understand why individuals such as yourself are so eager to defend the Confederacy. I fail to understand why you turn a blind eye to slavery, to the oppression, to the lifelong destruction of liberty for an entire group of people. And you (plural) claim that supporters of the Confederacy support freedom? Since when? You're not supporting freedom. You're supporting slavery! Imprisonment! Forced labor! "Freedom"--LOL! Do Confederate sympathizers even know what freedom for every citizen, not just those of a certain skin color, is?
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  6. #1356
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    A poster asking for proper evidence is always something that must be answered or the alternative is to risk losing all credibility.

    You want to say this must have been what it was like to sit in the fog and watch the Titanic sink into the North Atlantic night where the cold ocean waters simply took over inch by inch without even a whimper . But then you realize this is not even rowboat capsizing on small pond.

    The idea that anyone could be so far out there and yet so oblivious at the same time is to their inability to actually conduct an actual discussion and present at least a semblance of a case is really striking.
    Maybe I should use YahooAnswers, like you did.

    Whatever, my man!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #1357
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    But what in the Constitution is to prevent states from overreaching their powers?



    Complete and utter BS. Why are you continuing to raise a point that I have thoroughly debunked?



    None of this is relevant. I pointed to the court's decision to gain the legal high ground, not the moral one. Not once did I claim that secession was morally wrong, though I certainly believe that, and the ball is in the court of those who think it is justifiable. But legally speaking, secession by any state is not allowed, period, end of discussion. What you are trying to do is akin to arguing that the world is flat, and I seriously wish you guys would stop trying to beat this dead horse.



    In your opinion. You don't want the issue of racism to surface, because you and I both know that that would undermine your credibility in this argument. The problem is that due to the roots of the Confederacy, and the root cause of the Civil War, the racism issue is not going to go away until you address it head-on. But you refuse to do that. The lies, deception and propaganda I am seeing in this thread from the Conservative sympathizers approach a level of insane propaganda not seen since the days of Nazi Germany. "States rights" as a primary cause of the Civil War--LOL, what a pathetic lie.

    Furthermore, I fail to understand why individuals such as yourself are so eager to defend the Confederacy. I fail to understand why you turn a blind eye to slavery, to the oppression, to the lifelong destruction of liberty for an entire group of people. And you (plural) claim that supporters of the Confederacy support freedom? Since when? You're not supporting freedom. You're supporting slavery! Imprisonment! Forced labor! "Freedom"--LOL! Do Confederate sympathizers even know what freedom for every citizen, not just those of a certain skin color, is?
    The only thing you have done is fail to understand, but that's because you don't want to. I get it, you have a worldview and think you are correct, but I am not wasting more time with you.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  8. #1358
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Already answered multiple times. Texas v. White.
    And, what year was that? 18-sixty, what? Sixty-nine?

    Surely not trying to say tht everyone, in 1860, was very familiar with Texas v. White and knew that secession was illegal. Or, are you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #1359
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    I think it's time to sum this thread up:
    Pro-history side-
    - The north engaged in unfair trade practices and the location of the railroads
    - The south tried to use diplomacy
    - The slavery issue came up
    - The south seceeded because of all factors combined
    - The north occupied territory
    - The south issued a warning and attacked but probably should have furthered diplomacy
    - Both sides were wrong

    The pro-North Side-
    - The south was wrong
    - Because we say so
    - We don't need evidence
    - North Good South Bad.

    Does this sound about accurate?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I think it's time to sum this thread up:
    Pro-history side-
    - The north engaged in unfair trade practices and the location of the railroads
    - The south tried to use diplomacy
    - The slavery issue came up
    - The south seceeded because of all factors combined
    - The north occupied territory
    - The south issued a warning and attacked but probably should have furthered diplomacy
    - Both sides were wrong

    The pro-North Side-
    - The south was wrong
    - Because we say so
    - We don't need evidence
    - North Good South Bad.

    Does this sound about accurate?
    Couldn't of said it better myself.

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