View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1261
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And this is where I reject strict constructionism. The US was never created to be considered a compact or a confederation. These concepts were dissolved when the Articles of Confederation were replaced with the Constitution. The Constitution itself implies the perpetuity of the US. People may say that Texas v. White was decided AFTER the Civil War, but that is irrelevant. It was decided, constitutionally, that secession was illegal. No case indicated that it was legal before or after this.
    There are flaws in strict constructionism, I think the founders did get most of the original framework correct and we have interpreted too much, but there do need to be tests on the scope of rights and other constitutional matters. That being said many founders did speak on the right of the people to dissolve the union if it was determined that government has become intolerable. One can argue fairly that perhaps the south jumped the gun a little, one could also argue that the north was heavy handed. Either way though I do not blame the southern states given the historical nature of the test for seeing a right to secession based on the constitutional lack of wording and the founding father's writings. I also don't blame the SCOTUS for ruling post-war that the secession argument was settled. The big problem with the war was that it allowed arguments for centralization, which in itself is not terrible but once the federal government starting asserting it's powers were supreme amongst the states we started to see a cycle of encroachment on our rights. The biggest problems arise from a one size fits all mentality on many of our core disagreements, and "vote with your feet" is no longer becoming an option.



    The secession test was irrelevant since it was not a legal test. The fort was certainly US territory. Your Gitmo example is inconsistent. If the property is leased, then it is not actually US property. If I lease a building, the building is not my property, but the property of the leaser. In the case of Ft Sumter, it WAS US property.
    To be fair on the matter, the test was declared illegal after the fact, thus anything based on that determination tended to skew the discourse a little. Sure, if at the time the test were definitely illegal then the south would have been without a doubt wrong in assuming control of Ft. Sumter, but, once they declared a secession it is my opinion that the occupation was illegal based upon the law at that particular time. This obviously is an opinion matter, but we have seen treaties, land holdings, etc. change hands over time.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  2. #1262
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    There are flaws in strict constructionism, I think the founders did get most of the original framework correct and we have interpreted too much, but there do need to be tests on the scope of rights and other constitutional matters. That being said many founders did speak on the right of the people to dissolve the union if it was determined that government has become intolerable. One can argue fairly that perhaps the south jumped the gun a little, one could also argue that the north was heavy handed. Either way though I do not blame the southern states given the historical nature of the test for seeing a right to secession based on the constitutional lack of wording and the founding father's writings. I also don't blame the SCOTUS for ruling post-war that the secession argument was settled. The big problem with the war was that it allowed arguments for centralization, which in itself is not terrible but once the federal government starting asserting it's powers were supreme amongst the states we started to see a cycle of encroachment on our rights. The biggest problems arise from a one size fits all mentality on many of our core disagreements, and "vote with your feet" is no longer becoming an option.
    I am a strong Federalist... of the Hamiltonian type. I see the strong centralization of the federal government as necessary to create a strong nation. One of the reasons that the Articles of Confederation were replaced with the Constitution... a document far less of a "compact" or confederatory nature was to ensure a strong nation. If we look at our history, internal/sectional strife and conflict was far more rampant prior to the Civil War... the outcome of which was to confirm the strength of the union. Now, I understand that there are other factors... transportation and communication, the divisive nature of slavery, and the larger differences of the cultures of different areas of the US, but even with this, the US is far stronger as a federal government than as a group of states. I agree that both sides of the War had a hand in creating it, but I still see the actions of the Southern States as being illegal at the time.

    To be fair on the matter, the test was declared illegal after the fact, thus anything based on that determination tended to skew the discourse a little. Sure, if at the time the test were definitely illegal then the south would have been without a doubt wrong in assuming control of Ft. Sumter, but, once they declared a secession it is my opinion that the occupation was illegal based upon the law at that particular time. This obviously is an opinion matter, but we have seen treaties, land holdings, etc. change hands over time.
    It's like with any Constitutional test. It was declared illegal. Even if it was after the occurrence, it means the occurrence itself was illegal. Laws are passed and then struck down as unconstitutional all the time. Same concept.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    LOL. cracker is racist. Okay what is the PC term for saying what I like to eat with my coffee in the morning.
    I don't know what you eat with your coffee... but as I feel pertaining to all bigots and racists, I won't shed a tear if you choke on whatever it is.

    southern bigots/racists, northern bigots/racist, white bigots/racists, black bigots/racists.. makes no difference to me.... you're all equally worthless to the human race.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I am a strong Federalist... of the Hamiltonian type. I see the strong centralization of the federal government as necessary to create a strong nation. One of the reasons that the Articles of Confederation were replaced with the Constitution... a document far less of a "compact" or confederatory nature was to ensure a strong nation. If we look at our history, internal/sectional strife and conflict was far more rampant prior to the Civil War... the outcome of which was to confirm the strength of the union. Now, I understand that there are other factors... transportation and communication, the divisive nature of slavery, and the larger differences of the cultures of different areas of the US, but even with this, the US is far stronger as a federal government than as a group of states. I agree that both sides of the War had a hand in creating it, but I still see the actions of the Southern States as being illegal at the time.
    I am halfway on the federalist/anti-federalist side, I believe in enumeration of powers and can also see the merit of necessary and proper. True there were some additional powers delegated to the federal to strengthen the nation, and most of those enumerated powers are inarguable. Where I think we go wrong is to misconstrue enumerated powers to the point that the federal assumes too much power. There are many things our federal has taken control of that are best left to the states, such as environmental regulation, food safety, etc. I think an argument is past due to figure out what can be relegated back to the states before a major incident transpires. Basically the argument boils down to that of what needs be settled and what is overreach.



    It's like with any Constitutional test. It was declared illegal. Even if it was after the occurrence, it means the occurrence itself was illegal. Laws are passed and then struck down as unconstitutional all the time. Same concept.
    I do get that, and on that point this is correct. What the basic point my side is making is that at the time there was no disbarment and that led to the occupation problems and border disputes. It was an all around control fight.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    It's like with any Constitutional test. It was declared illegal. Even if it was after the occurrence, it means the occurrence itself was illegal. Laws are passed and then struck down as unconstitutional all the time. Same concept.
    I see their decision over secession much like a see the decisions at Nuremberg... a foregone conclusion, victors justice.
    for them to render a different decision would be to undermine their very authority and the document that gives them that authority.

  6. #1266
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I am halfway on the federalist/anti-federalist side, I believe in enumeration of powers and can also see the merit of necessary and proper. True there were some additional powers delegated to the federal to strengthen the nation, and most of those enumerated powers are inarguable. Where I think we go wrong is to misconstrue enumerated powers to the point that the federal assumes too much power. There are many things our federal has taken control of that are best left to the states, such as environmental regulation, food safety, etc. I think an argument is past due to figure out what can be relegated back to the states before a major incident transpires. Basically the argument boils down to that of what needs be settled and what is overreach.
    See, and I don't think those regulations should be left to the states. I'm for uniformity.

    I do get that, and on that point this is correct. What the basic point my side is making is that at the time there was no disbarment and that led to the occupation problems and border disputes. It was an all around control fight.
    I understand that point and I can see it to some extent, though I do not agree. Based on the Articles and the implication of perpetuity, secession being barred seems clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #1267
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I see their decision over secession much like a see the decisions at Nuremberg... a foregone conclusion, victors justice.
    for them to render a different decision would be to undermine their very authority and the document that gives them that authority.
    Nuremberg certainly was, since there was nothing that really covered the things that occurred in WWII. In this case, we had standard property rights' laws, laws around the seizing of Federal property, and the implications of perpetuity.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #1268
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Nuremberg certainly was, since there was nothing that really covered the things that occurred in WWII. In this case, we had standard property rights' laws, laws around the seizing of Federal property, and the implications of perpetuity.
    understood.... but i just take a different perspective on the matter.
    by "we" you mean the US... the Union.
    it gets sticky when you take into consideration that the confederacy dropped out of the Union and was therefore not, according to them, bound by it's laws or institutions.
    we look at this issue through the prism of the US Constitution, but we generally disregard that the US Constitution was null and void to the Confederacy.
    of course any entity (specifically SCOTUS) still bound by the Constitution would find that the Confederacy was still bound by the Constitution and it's implications of perpetuity... it can't rule otherwise and retain legitimacy.
    had the south won, militarily, SCOTUS and it's decisions would be irrelevent ( the case would have never been brought before them or heard) as the US Constitution would not pertain to the south and the courts would have no jurisdiction.
    but they didn't win... and victors justice was the inevitable outcome.

    there was never a legitimate legal answer to secession (still isn't).. it was killed by force and force alone... the legalities were entirely dependent upon the outcome of the military campaigns.
    thanks to the railroad and the telegraph, the South lost and the legalities were then determined in the Unions favor... by the Union.

  9. #1269
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    is this a joke? are you really comparing NC & SC to France & Germany?
    In the sense that they are separate sovereign states, yes.

    Do you deny that North Carolina and South Carolina were independent sovereign states after the revolutionary war?

  10. #1270
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    What about him? And why should anyone care what he thought? Was he a Constitutional scholar, too?
    He recognized the Confederate States of America as an independent nation.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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