View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Voters
98. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    36 36.73%
  • No

    56 57.14%
  • I don't know.

    6 6.12%
Page 122 of 183 FirstFirst ... 2272112120121122123124132172 ... LastLast
Results 1,211 to 1,220 of 1824

Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1211
    Mod Conspiracy Theorist
    rocket88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    A very blue state
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,124

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Well, North Carolina and South Carolina are separate states, just as Germany and France are separate states. So they differ in the same way.
    Germany and France speak different languages and are different cultures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  2. #1212
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Penn's Woods
    Last Seen
    09-01-12 @ 09:09 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,984

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Actually East and West Germany were based on who controlled what part of Germany after WWII. It wasn't based on a "nation-state" it was based on whether it was controlled by the US or the USSR.

    So very bad example. A better example of the "nation-state" would be the re-unification of East and West Germany into one German state to match the one German nation.
    Good point. I'll agree with you that the term "nation" describes "a people" and has a different connotation than the term "state" which refers to a polity. For example, the ancient Greeks were a single nation but were many states.

    I used the term nation-state purposely, and possibly inadvisably, to convey the concept of a sovereign state. In light of your objection, I think the term sovereign state is more accurate, and I'll use that term from now on.
    Last edited by Centinel; 11-19-11 at 09:11 PM.

  3. #1213
    Mod Conspiracy Theorist
    rocket88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    A very blue state
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,124

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Good point. I'll agree with you that the term "nation" describes "a people" and has a different connotation than the term "state" which refers to a polity. For example, the ancient Greeks were a single nation but were many states.

    I used the term nation-state purposely, and possibly inadvisably, to convey the concept of a sovereign state. In light of your objection, I think the term sovereign state is more accurate, and I'll use that term from now on.
    Much better. Carry on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  4. #1214
    All Warm and Fuzzy
    FluffyNinja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Miss-uh-Sippie
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 04:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    4,831

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Can I ask you something? Why are you and a few others so eager to defend a "nation" (and I use that word VERY loosely) that established itself as a sworn enemy of the United States of America? I, for one, and SO glad that the Confederacy got crushed in the Civil War. United States of America, not Divided States of America.
    You assume way to much here. I can only speak for myself, but I have never and never will defend the institution of slavery as "morally acceptable". I can, as a historian, appreciate the legality and importance of it economically at the time.

    History must always be reviewed in the correct context. The problem that bleeding heart Liberals have when it comes to history is, more often, than not, they attempt to apply modern values and ethical standards to events which happened centuries ago. This is not a practical approach to studying history. Down this road lies propaganda and revisionism.

    That being said, in regards to secession and the war, I do not "defend" the CSA as having the moral "high ground", only the CONSTITUTIONAL high ground. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the South, in 1860, had a legal right to secede, draft a constitution, elect leaders, and to occupy and defend their own property.

    The Union had no Constitutional recourse, therefore, the only solution for Lincoln, was to provoke the CSA into a war. Ordering Union troops to hold their ground at Ft. Sumter (in Confederate-held S. Carolina) even after they'd been asked to leave peacefully, or turning away CSA diplomats who sought a peaceful separation, was just part of the process.

    While I know that the secession was completely constitutional, and that SCOTUS could/would never have upheld treason convictions for any Confederate...................I DO believe that Secession, at the time, was not wise. Again, I in no way condone slavery, but we must look a bit deeper. Like it or not, the North (specifically New England factories) profited greatly from Southern Cotton. Many prominent, so-called "abolitionist," Congressmen were from those states. The fact is, Congress refused to lower the tariff or to consider a southern route for the trans-continental RR because the the North wanted to maintain some control over the vast revenues from Cotton exports (it is an irrefuteable FACT that Southern exports accounted for almost 70% of total US exports in the years prior to the Civil War).

    Is ANYONE here willing to argue that the South's economy was not being exploited by the North and that this great economic success would not have been possible without slavery? The evidence tends to lead one to believe that the North wasn't as "anti-slavery" as we've typically been taught (at least not Northern Political leaders)

    Once again, I'm not defending the "peculiar institution" nor the act of secession as morally right or good. I don't think the act of secession was a particlarly "smart" thing to do. But I CAN see it all in its proper context. I CAN see the justifcation and the legality of it. And I CAN empathize with Southern leaders and sympathize with the average southerner who never owned a slave but got caught up in the whole thing just to defend his homeland from an invading force.
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 11-19-11 at 09:23 PM.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  5. #1215
    Sage
    Phys251's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    12,705

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    its unbelievable sometimes, what folks say regarding the Civil War.
    No kidding.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    All this has been hashed out, your side doesn't want to objectively look at the facts and really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Sorry if I can't take you seriously anymore. I'll leave you with this, you refuse evidence that the north did just as much to cause the war as the south, possibly more. The truth isn't flaming, and ignorance of counter points doesn't make you anymore correct. Frankly I'm getting bored.
    WE'RE the ones not being objective?! LOL! The South had slavery, the South tried to starve out Fort Sumter, the South attacked it when a relief vessel was sent, and ultimately, THE SOUTH LOST THE CIVIL WAR. GET OVER IT ALREADY.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You want to use the whole context?
    Oh you mean what the Civil War was all about, at its core? Slavery, and nothing else. "States rights," "War of Northern Aggression," etc. were all pro-slavery propaganda terms that the South conjured up to defend their war of defense of slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    You assume way to much here. I can only speak for myself, but I have never and never will defend the institution of slavery as "morally acceptable". I can, as a historian, appreciate the legality and importance of it economically at the time.

    History must always be reviewed in the correct context. The problem that bleeding heart Liberals have when it comes to history is, more often, than not, they attempt to apply modern values and ethical standards to events which happened centuries ago. This is not a practical approach to studying history. Down this road lies propaganda and revisionism.

    That being said, in regards to secession and the war, I do not "defend" the CSA as having the moral "high ground", only the CONSTITUTIONAL high ground. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the South, in 1860, had a legal right to secede, draft a constitution, elect leaders, and to occupy and defend their own property.
    For someone who claims to know a whole lot about history, the highlighted comment automatically disqualifies you from making such an arrogant claim. And I'm sure you know what this "correct context" is? A context that slavery isn't such a bad thing? Is that what you're getting at?

    The Union had no Constitutional recourse, therefore, the only solution for Lincoln, was to provoke the CSA into a war. Ordering Union troops to hold their ground at Ft. Sumter (in Confederate-held S. Carolina) even after they'd been asked to leave peacefully, or turning away CSA diplomats who sought a peaceful separation, was just part of the process.

    While I know that the secession was completely constitutional, and that SCOTUS could/would never have upheld treason convictions for any Confederate...................I DO believe that Secession, at the time, was not wise. Again, I in no way condone slavery, but we must look a bit deeper. Like it or not, the North (specifically New England factories) profited greatly from Southern Cotton. Many prominent, so-called "abolitionist," Congressmen were from those states. The fact is, Congress refused to lower the tariff or to consider a southern route for the trans-continental RR because the the North wanted to maintain some control over the vast revenues from Cotton exports (it is an irrefuteable FACT that Southern exports accounted for almost 70% of total US exports in the years prior to the Civil War).

    Is ANYONE here willing to argue that the South's economy was not being exploited by the North and that this great economic success would not have been possible without slavery? The evidence tends to lead one to believe that the North wasn't as "anti-slavery" as we've typically been taught (at least not Northern Political leaders)
    I don't give a flying **** what the South thought about what the United States of America was doing to it. Because in the pro-American view--you know, the one that actually salutes the US flag instead of shooting at it--we have always been one nation. Period. This secessionist bullcrap can go to hell.

    Once again, I'm not defending the "peculiar institution" nor the act of secession as morally right or good. I don't think the act of secession was a particlarly "smart" thing to do. But I CAN see it all in its proper context. I CAN see the justifcation and the legality of it. And I CAN empathize with Southern leaders and sympathize with the average southerner who never owned a slave but got caught up in the whole thing just to defend his homeland from an invading force.
    And why aren't you empathizing with the African-Americans, whose lifelong bondage was what fueled this entire problem? Are you sympathetic toward them, too? Are you sympathetic toward an institution that carved out entire tribes, captured them, and made them property of white men? Or do you see them as just cogs in the machine that were on the wrong side of history?

    What the South did is in absolutely no way, shape or form worthy of sympathy. What they did ranks down there with the Trail of Tears as one of the darkest chapters in American history. Pride? That's worthy of pride? Are you kidding me?
    Last edited by Phys251; 11-19-11 at 11:03 PM.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  6. #1216
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    No kidding.



    WE'RE the ones not being objective?! LOL! The South had slavery, the South tried to starve out Fort Sumter, the South attacked it when a relief vessel was sent, and ultimately, THE SOUTH LOST THE CIVIL WAR. GET OVER IT ALREADY.



    Oh you mean what the Civil War was all about, at its core? Slavery, and nothing else. "States rights," "War of Northern Aggression," etc. were all pro-slavery propaganda terms that the South conjured up to defend their war of defense of slavery.



    For someone who claims to know a whole lot about history, the highlighted comment automatically disqualifies you from making such an arrogant claim. And I'm sure you know what this "correct context" is? A context that slavery isn't such a bad thing? Is that what you're getting at?



    I don't give a flying **** what the South thought about what the United States of America was doing to it. Because in the pro-American view--you know, the one that actually salutes the US flag instead of shooting at it--we have always been one nation. Period. This secessionist bullcrap can go to hell.



    And why aren't you empathizing with the African-Americans, whose lifelong bondage was what fueled this entire problem? Are you sympathetic toward them, too? Are you sympathetic toward an institution that carved out entire tribes, captured them, and made them property of white men? Or do you see them as just cogs in the machine that were on the wrong side of history?
    Okay great, you are reusing the same arguments and not offering any credible backing of those things. Then you are asserting that the very simplistic "it was about slaves" position is correct where it isn't so. You are feigning incredulity here in some kind of attempt to act like those of us who have presented the entire story are somehow revisionists or evil when in fact your side is attempting a white wash. Don't point fingers here, accept the fact that you are excusing northern economic manipulation, you are excusing northern trespass, and northern propagandizing. Every SINGLE person sharing the side of the south has acknowledge southern wrongdoing but for some reason those wanting to defend the northern position cannot acknowledge that perhaps the north was out of line as well.

    So far in this thread the northern backers have called us "racist", "traitor", "hick", "redneck", and accused us of ignorance when the facts and the history back our side up. So who exactly is holding the weak hand and trying to lie and bluff their way out of it? Hint: It ain't the south.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  7. #1217
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The greatest city on Earth
    Last Seen
    08-04-12 @ 04:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    31,089

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Well, North Carolina and South Carolina are separate states, just as Germany and France are separate states. So they differ in the same way.
    is this a joke? are you really comparing NC & SC to France & Germany?

  8. #1218
    Sage
    Phys251's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    12,705

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Okay great, you are reusing the same arguments and not offering any credible backing of those things. Then you are asserting that the very simplistic "it was about slaves" position is correct where it isn't so. You are feigning incredulity here in some kind of attempt to act like those of us who have presented the entire story are somehow revisionists or evil when in fact your side is attempting a white wash. Don't point fingers here, accept the fact that you are excusing northern economic manipulation, you are excusing northern trespass, and northern propagandizing. Every SINGLE person sharing the side of the south has acknowledge southern wrongdoing but for some reason those wanting to defend the northern position cannot acknowledge that perhaps the north was out of line as well.
    Awww, boo-hoo, the Big Bad North told the precious, innocent South that it needed to grow out of its backward, racist, institution of slavery. Get over it! The South got what they deserved in the form of getting their asses whupped. The South LOST. Quit trying to fight a war that's been over for more than a century.

    So far in this thread the northern backers have called us "racist", "traitor", "hick", "redneck", and accused us of ignorance when the facts and the history back our side up. So who exactly is holding the weak hand and trying to lie and bluff their way out of it? Hint: It ain't the south.
    What facts? The fact that the South declared itself the mortal enemy of the United States of America? The fact that the South caused more Americans to die in combat on her soil than in all her other wars combined? The facts that the South created the institution that led to this whole mess in the first place? The fact that said institution was blatantly racist, a fact conveniently overlooked by sympathizers of the Confederacy?
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  9. #1219
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Awww, boo-hoo, the Big Bad North told the precious, innocent South that it needed to grow out of its backward, racist, institution of slavery. Get over it! The South got what they deserved in the form of getting their asses whupped. The South LOST. Quit trying to fight a war that's been over for more than a century.
    So you want to stick to that line of thinking? Fine, but it's been presented that slavery was one of many issues unresolved by the north, fortunately there are people in this country that ask question beyond eight grade history and learn about more things than "South bad, North good". You want to feel good about the outcome of the war, go ahead. Minus slavery ending the Union gained more power than it was ever supposed to have and we are still paying the bill for that to this day(Not talking money, talking about the cost of liberty so don't try finding economic data). You think you're being funny but every single time a new abusive federal program is introduced you can thank the north for getting the ball rolling, that isn't an opinion, the north wanted to expand central powers and THAT IS A FACT.


    What facts? The fact that the South declared itself the mortal enemy of the United States of America?
    If you mean the south left the Union and the Union occupied southern land with a miliatary presence that was unwelcome and the south took exception to that and some northerners got starved and shot for being occupying assholes. Sure, why not.
    The fact that the South caused more Americans to die in combat on her soil than in all her other wars combined?
    Yawn. Who took the first agressive action? The north did, sorry to burst your bubble on that.
    The facts that the South created the institution that led to this whole mess in the first place? The fact that said institution was blatantly racist, a fact conveniently overlooked by sympathizers of the Confederacy?
    LOL! Now THAT is revision. The south wasn't even in the U.S. at the time slavery was founded. If you can't even get that one right how can we even take you seriously?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  10. #1220
    Guru
    99percenter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    4,072

    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    it's nice when you are able to redefine terms as to not apply to you and the folks you support... isn't it?

    how about "cracker"... i'm guessing that not racist or bigoted in your dictionary either.


    i gotta say, i'm so not impressed with you tonight... you've taken a big hit on the consistency scale... your claim that you hate racists and bigots is false, blatantly so.
    LOL. cracker is racist. Okay what is the PC term for saying what I like to eat with my coffee in the morning.
    bears, bulls, white sox fan 4 life!!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •