View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
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    56 57.14%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #1171
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Its very simple: The South unilaterally seceded. The rest of the USA did not agree to this secession.
    Which completely didn't ****ing matter. Considering that an agreement has two sides and either one can end it.

    The USA had a fort in South Carolina. It was Federal property, filled with Federal troops.
    Wah Wah,.Wah Wah Wah Wah.
    The South, having unilaterally seceded, decided to piss on the property rights of the United States, and demanded that Ft. Sumter evacuate. Of course, the USA told Dixie to **** off, as it was their property, and the CSA had no right to demand the fort be evacuated. So, unprovoked, the South attacked Ft. Sumter.
    Wah Wah. Wah Wah Wah Wah.
    In summation, the South seceded from the North to protect their property rights, but attacked Ft. Sumter cause they didn't give a **** about the property rights of others.
    You lose.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    ...Wah Wah,.Wah Wah Wah Wah. Wah Wah. Wah Wah Wah Wah.
    You lose.
    is this your response?

    I guess this means my argument is correct, if this is all you have to say.

  3. #1173
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    is this your response?

    I guess this means my argument is correct, if this is all you have to say.
    Actually it just means you keep repeating incorrect and it's boring me. Thanks for playing.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    That's the thing though. The US was not a confederacy like EU which states were independent. In any dispute the federal govt is the final authority as was in the secession dispute. The federal govt said that pursuant to the Constitution secession was illegal and therefore the confederacy never existed.
    The united states are a federation of sovereign, independent nation-states. They created the federation. I know of at least three of the states that, when ratifying the constitution, specifically stated that they were conditionally delegating some authority to the federation, and that they would revoke those powers if and when belonging to the federation was detrimental to their liberty.

    None of you has shown any evidence that the states chose to permanently give up their sovereignty upon joining the federation.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I guess you aren't understanding, the north was tresspassing on southern land and refused an order to remove their presence. That is an act of war, but go ahead and use Wiki all you like.
    Actually you are wrong. There was no such thing as southern land. United States had authority over all the United States including the south. The United States would have to approve withdrawal from tue union. Secession is explicitly prohibited by our constitution and therefore the CSA never existed. The South was occupying federal property.
    bears, bulls, white sox fan 4 life!!!

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    The united states are a federation of sovereign, independent nation-states......
    oh my...did he just say that?


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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    Actually you are wrong. There was no such thing as southern land. United States had authority over all the United States including the south. The United States would have to approve withdrawal from tue union. Secession is explicitly prohibited by our constitution and therefore the CSA never existed. The South was occupying federal property.
    Keep telling yourself this, maybe some day it will come true.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    Actually you are wrong. There was no such thing as southern land. United States had authority over all the United States including the south. The United States would have to approve withdrawal from tue union. Secession is explicitly prohibited by our constitution and therefore the CSA never existed. The South was occupying federal property.
    secession is not expressly prohibited by the Constitution... you can argue it's implied.. but it is not and was not expressly prohibited.

    as for claims on the land... welll, that's what they fought a war over the Union thought it was their land, the Confederacy thought it was theirs.... you are simply taking sides, not promoting facts.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    if you think South Carolina is sovereign, like Denmark is sovereign, than you are very...very wrong.
    Per the Treaty of Paris that ended the revolutionary war: "His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof. "

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    If you honestly believe that the tariff and the ralroad were "not big deals" then perhaps you should do a bit of research. I suggest starting with some of the writings/speeches of John C. Calhoun and Henry Clay.
    I'm glad you brought up Calhoun and Clay because that sets the stage for my explanation as to why tariffs weren't a big deal.

    1. The tariff you're referring to is the Tariff of 1828. It helped the North quite a bit and shafted the South. Southerners were pissed, Clay and Calhoun did their thing, etc., etc. All of this led to the "Nullification Crisis" when South Carolina claimed the tariff was unconstitutional and some people threatened secession. But this was in 1828. Why is the year so important? Because from ~1830 to 1860, Democrats (the Southerner's Party) controlled Congress and brought those tariffs down an awful lot to the point where most Southerners were pretty satisfied. In other words, 1828 was way before 1861 and by 1861 tariffs were lower than they had been since 1816.

    Even so, in 1860, Lincoln was elected and the "Morrill Tariff" did threaten to raise the rates again, so I guess you could argue that that was a big deal. But wait! Many states had already seceded from the Union before the tariff was even passed. And wait again! Many Southern members of the Congress abandoned their positions not even attempting to stop the tariff. And if the tariff was such a big deal - then staying in Congress would have been a much easier solution than seceding or fighting a war. So no you can't argue that.

    2. Let's also look at South Carolina's declaration of secession. Why? Because they were the main state involved in the Nullification Crisis and they were also the first state to secede. What did they give as the reason for their decision:

    The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.
    They did not mention tariffs once. Yet they mention slavery over and over and over again.

    The bottom line is that Southerners were afraid Lincoln would, at the very least, stop the expansion of slavery, and at the most, end it altogether (they were right). Such a threat to slavery threatened their entire economy and livelihoods far more than the greatest tariff ever would. The idea that a tariff would deserve even close to an equal position on the importance scale as slavery is based in a denial of how central slavery was to Southern economy.

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