View Poll Results: Would you consider the new immigration standards suggested in the OP?

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  • Yes

    9 60.00%
  • No

    5 33.33%
  • Maybe, if it was less extreme

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Thread: Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

  1. #71
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    Re: Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    America currently faces a jobs crisis that is most brought on by off-shoring of American jobs to wage-slavers abroad and in-sourcing wage-slavers with work visas.

    Obviously, international corporate consortiums are at fault.

    In addition to enforcing our good immigration laws, we also need to take appropriate action to bring back off-shored and in-sourced jobs.

    This can be accomplished with major tax penalties to off-shorers and in-sourcers, tax breaks for hiring Americans and legal immigrants, and major tax incentives for American-soil start-up companies replacing off-shored divisions.

    Another good tool in combination is the "dreaded" tariff.

    American based companies that operate internationally need to be held to the good behavior ethic "if you make it abroad, you sell it abroad" -- that's always been a good ethical rule for us.

    The problems we suffer today began during the Reagan administration's corporate socialist movement and their mantra of "what's good for corporate America is good for Americans". Clearly that was a false belief.

    I know that President Obama's last state of the union address included much about making America competitive in the global economy by creating in our own people "the best and the brightest" competitors we can be.

    But this is absolute foolishness -- we can't compete with wage-slave labor abroad no matter how good and bright we are.

    Thus I don't see the need or the value of including a "best and brightest and healthiest" policy in our immigration laws.

    I'm concerned about regular Americans being punished for being regular Americans if we advocate becoming a land of neurotically competitive Ferengi.

    And that kind of foolish, futile behavior forced upon our school children will likely make many of them physically ill.
    We cant control wages abroad and should focus our efforts on keeping standards high here at home by refusing citizenship to those who drag them down.

    The reason for exporting american jobs is directly related to the ever increasing US taxes and regulations that make it impossible for American Industry to be competitive in a global economy. Sink or swim. They have been given no other option.

    Corporations are not the problem. Government is the problem and the more it grows the bigger the problem gets. The corporations could be our saviors if government would get out of their way and let them do what they do best. Create wealth and jobs.

    The left will tell you to ignore and deny the history of what made America the wealtiest most powerful nation on earth while promoting class warfare by telling you the rich are evil and greedy. Tactics taken directly from the writings of Karl Marx.

    Capitalism is your friend...Government is your enemy.

    History has shown that we're good enough as we are, and that our problems have usually been internally caused by bad decisions made by Washington to serve the small special interests with all the money.
    Im inclined to agree with this one for the most part.
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

  2. #72
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    Re: Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica
    Exactly how do you equate demanding that the federal government enforce US immigration laws to "attacks" on illegal aliens?
    You are on the right track later in this thread…

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica
    The reason for exporting american jobs is directly related to the ever increasing US taxes and regulations that make it impossible for American Industry to be competitive in a global economy.
    You have just implied that the price of production has, in essence, bankrupted the “America Corporation” through taxes and regulations. In order to avoid total closure, the company (the U.S.) has to downsize such things as its labor force. The goods are still in demand and they still need to be produced, they just need to be produced more cheaply. One of the biggest costs of production for many goods is labor. So, as you correctly said, businesses will outsource in order to reduce the overhead.

    Many other jobs cannot be relocated due to geographical specific features (such as farming and construction). These goods still need to be provided at a low rate so the businesses will still make an effort to reduce labor costs. By and large, those who command the lowest wage rates are unskilled laborers with no experience and immigrants with lower standards of living.

    So, a company can either hire kids right out of high school with no experience and hope they will “cut the mustard” or they can hire immigrants who likely have many years of experience (and likely a better work ethic than the high school kids). What would you have them do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica
    Government is the problem ... The corporations could be our saviors if government would get out of their way and let them do what they do best.
    I will assume that you answered my previous question with something along the lines of letting the businesses choose whoever would allow them to create the most wealth. However, these businesses will only be allowed to choose from certain government approved immigrants and not simply any immigrant who possesses the necessary skills and desire to perform the job. The question I have for you, then, is why should the government be relied upon for efficient allocation of labor when you don’t think it wise to do so for other commodities? There is no essential economic difference between labor and capital.

    To get back to your original question then…

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica
    Exactly how do you equate demanding that the federal government enforce US immigration laws to "attacks" on illegal aliens?
    The concept of “illegal” immigration reduces the free movement of labor and only serves to increase costs to those within the arbitrary political confines. I believe that everyone has the natural right to freedom of movement and contract. Immigration law defies this right.

  3. #73
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    Re: Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

    Problem is America needs immigrants because the current generation of Americans want everything handed to them on a plate! Company I work for comes under a lot heavy criticism because they have a lot of immigrants. In my branch there was a Russian, couple of Thai's and myself (British) and we outnumbered Americans, this isn't because we were able to work for less for more hours ( we all start on same pay) its because we were all willing to work from the bottom. When I took the job I had just got my green card and it wasn't full time hours which of course meant no health care etc. They had been looking for people for 3 months before I took the job because Americans out of college didn't want the job, they wanted full time with all the trimmings. I took the job and also picked up a 2nd job ( bar work) worked very hard for 6 months and then I got promoted which meant full time hours and the healthcare, then 6 months later I got promoted again and now 2 years later I earn a very nice wage in the marketing department.
    I moved here because my wife wanted to be closer to her sick father, no one handed me anything, I paid the couple of grand for the green card and then I worked my butt off and im doing pretty well now. Most of my American friends are still working in bars doing masters now and are still convinced that after they have a masters they will get that dream job handed to them...time to wake up!

  4. #74
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    Re: Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    We cant control wages abroad and should focus our efforts on keeping standards high here at home by refusing citizenship to those who drag them down.
    We already refuse citizenship to criminal elements.

    Outside of that, who are these legal immigrants that are dragging down standards here at home?

    Also, how are they dragging standards down?

    Please answer those questions for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    The reason for exporting american jobs is directly related to the ever increasing US taxes and regulations that make it impossible for American Industry to be competitive in a global economy. Sink or swim. They have been given no other option.
    An American worker being paid $12.00/hour vs. a worker in a third world country being paid $.05/hour.

    That's the reason our jobs have been off-shored.

    Taxation issues are very minor compared to the wage-slave issue.

    If the two wages were equal, companies would stay here, as the tax issue is offset by overseas costs, tariffs, pay-offs to corrupt governments, and language barrier challenges.

    The reason we have so much off-shoring is because one company in a given industry started it, considerably lowered the resulting consumer price, and then the remaining competitors in that industry had to follow suit or lose the price war.

    Off-shoring has ramped up in recent years because international corporations have improved their ability to source wage-slaves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Corporations are not the problem. Government is the problem
    You say that repeatedly, thus it's no wonder I hear the typical fiscal conservative dualism .. shared also by most libertarians: corporations are angels .. the government is the devil.

    Liberals often see it vice versa.

    I prefer to look closely at the facts apart from pre-conceived ideology, determine the problem, and create solutions.

    Sometimes I find that corporations are wrong and need to change and sometimes I find that government is wrong and needs to change and sometimes both.

    In this particular situation, international corporate consortiums need to be reigned in, management and unions need to do a better job at coming to agreements, and government politicians must see to it that that happens instead of off-shoring and in-sourcing wage-slaves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    and the more it grows the bigger the problem gets.
    The size of government is not the issue with government.

    The substance of government is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    The corporations could be our saviors if government would get out of their way and let them do what they do best. Create wealth and jobs.
    Corporations will never be our saviors.

    There is no constitutional mandate for corporations to promote the general welfare and provide for the common defense.

    The goal of corporations is to turn the biggest profit they can, and corporations see workers as a cost that drains profits.

    Corporations, being the animal that they are, will always seek out the cheapest production costs available.

    That's the foundational reason they are presently robbing out-sourced Peter to pay peanuts to Pablo.

    Purely free enterprise without effective government controls is the ultimate in cold economic war, and in this war the owners create wealth for themselves and jobs at the cheapest global rate they can find.

    It's not a good thing for the great majority of Americans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    The left will tell you to ignore and deny the history of what made America the wealtiest most powerful nation on earth while promoting class warfare by telling you the rich are evil and greedy. Tactics taken directly from the writings of Karl Marx.
    And, they'd be wrong.

    But the right will tell you to ignore and deny the history of what made the American standard of living for all the most cherished standard of living on earth while promoting class warfare by telling you that workers are lazy and freeloaders. Tactics taken directly from the writings of Ronald Reagan and other corporate panderers.

    And they're wrong, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Capitalism is your friend...Government is your enemy.
    Neither is true .. and neither is the opposite true as well.

    It's times like this I feel so glad I don't suffer from pre-conceived ideology -- I think so much clearer as a result.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Im inclined to agree with this one for the most part.
    Yes, but you are inclined to so agree because you've filtered it through your ideology, thus imagining I just put down "the big bad government" when I didn't.

    The problem is that the corporate socialism movement started under Reagan has been perpetuated by Washington politicians left and right bought and paid for by corporate interests .. to this day.

    It's not about our government; it's about the wingnuts left and right we've been forced to elect to run our government.

    All of our problems can be traced to a combination of corporations and unions behaving badly and politicians not intervening the moment the first wave of jobs in an industry were about to be out-sourced.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  5. #75
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    Re: Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    Outside of that, who are these legal immigrants that are dragging down standards here at home? Also, how are they dragging standards down?
    If domestic laborers demand $20/hr and foreign laborers only demand $5/hr the predominant wage will tend to decrease to the marginal rate, ceteris paribus. I don’t have to tell you that lower wage rates result in lower standards of living without a subsequent reduction in general prices. And, since the Federal Reserve has made “combating deflation” one of its highest priorities, a reduction in wage rates would result in a reduction in the general standard of living.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    Taxation issues are very minor compared to the wage-slave issue.
    I’m pretty sure I already discussed this with you… No bother.

    A wage of $.05/hr in most nations would be considered a poor wage but you are not being genuine with your comparison. A wage of $.50/hr, on the other hand, would be a very good wage in quite a few nations. Wages are relative to the standard of living and general price level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    Sometimes I find that corporations are wrong and need to change and sometimes I find that government is wrong and needs to change and sometimes both.
    I would agree with this statement for the most part. However, the method used for the desired change is what separates the freedom loving person from the statist. What methodology would you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    The size of government is not the issue with government. The substance of government is.
    Does this hold true for corporations as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    There is no constitutional mandate for corporations to promote the general welfare and provide for the common defense.
    Ah, but there is a constitutional restriction from abridging the freedoms of speech and press, an infringement upon the bearing of arms, the right to be secure in one’s home, the right to trial, and numerous other protections but we see how well it has held back our government.

    You are very quick to point out the “greed” of corporations but completely ignore the “greed” of every single consumer (i.e. individual). Everyone is greedy by nature. Consumers demand the lowest prices for the highest quality goods and businesses demand the lowest wages for the highest labor output. There is no difference!

    This “greed” you so much detest is the sole concept responsible for the high standard of living experienced throughout the world. Left to its own, the “greed” of corporations would extend to the poorest regions of the world and eventually raise their standards of living to the level experienced by the rest of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    It's not a good thing for the great majority of Americans.
    America is an ignorant fool convinced of the soundness of 17th century mercantilism. The reign of America as an economic giant is quickly nearing its end thanks to asinine government policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    It's times like this I feel so glad I don't suffer from pre-conceived ideology -- I think so much clearer as a result.
    Your discussion begs otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy
    It's not about our government; it's about the wingnuts left and right we've been forced to elect to run our government.
    The wingnut right and left are logical derivations of the republican form of government we have.

  6. #76
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    Re: Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

    Start with making English our "National Language". A nation is cohesive only by it's language...remember Babylon.

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