View Poll Results: Which party is more responsible for the state of the economy?

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  • The Republican Party

    41 62.12%
  • The Democratic Party

    25 37.88%
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Thread: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

  1. #51
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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Really the new deal is responsible for excess bank leverage?

    Countries like Canada have higher tax rates and higher social spending yet did not have the banking system collapse of the US
    the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.

  2. #52
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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    See, that's interesting - because I find it dishonest how you will try to bring in strawmen or irrelevant data and insist that therefore all evidence arrayed against you is moot.
    Except that you define such data as anything that does not support your position. You know for a fact that the economy is not just fiscal policy. But you keep citing a study that explicitly states that all other data is ignored. That is stupid and you know it. But you refuse to own up to it. Hence why you are dishonest. You know better but you refuse to do so.

    I will usually praise advancement - people who are working, being productive and living better lives are situated superior to those who are living as drains on their fellow man, doing little to nothing, and experiencing a lower standard of living.
    But here you are praising going nowhere. Therefore you are a liar.

    funny how you are so quick to give it credit for Canadian economic success, and so quick to insist that we shouldn't try to experience any of that economic growth ourselves.
    Come again? I didn't say we shouldn't do it at all. Which again makes you a liar. I said we should wait until we can get the most bang for the buck. Oh wait. That makes you a liar again. Your inability to debate in the recent weeks without blatant lying is getting annoying.

    given that you are the one always worried about short-term demand, you would think you would recognize the immediate-term benefits of massive investment and higher-than-average paying jobs. or is it only public sector investment and employment that you care for?
    Wrong. Getting oil out of tar sands is costly and slow. We'd be lucky to get it out in 10 years to market. It's not the same thing as natural gas (but I doubt you'd understand why). So there wouldn't be any real immediate benefit from expansion. Canada put in the capital investment for Alberta Tar Sands in 90s. Anyone who thinks we can get a quick boost from this is stupid and does not understand the process of capital investment to getting products to global markets in the tar sand industry. Hell, that applies to virtually all oil that we can drill in America. We do not have the kind of oil sources that simply bubble to the surface in large amounts like the Saudis do. It costs them $2 to pump a gallon of oil. We are not in the same situation. To think so is to admit you are an idiot.

    yet another great reason to allow it access to our full reserves so that it can compete and beat them.
    No, not really. The cost of extraction will be high, and global prices aren't peaking. And the expertise and knowledge hasn't become ubiquitous to make it cheap. You won't respond to that. Watch. You won't.

    I'm surprised you don't recognize the Economic Freedom Index.
    I don't buy any graph until I can link it back to its source. It may look like it from there, but until it's linked, it means nothing.

    I see how you just completely ignored how more regulation in Canada actually prevented a major recession. But you can't be bothered with facts that hurt your ideology now can you?

    well if you want to broaden the definition into that old standard of economics "the allocation of scarce resources that have alternate uses", you could make the argument that economics is "rationing" of a form - but you would still be incorrect here with regards to whether or not the solution is to allow individuals to allocate their resources, or to allow the state to seize those resources and then reallocate them as it sees fit.
    You as usually, fail to see the middle ground. Seriously, what is with you a binary choices? States can set up healthcare systems which force providers to compete to reduce the costs to individuals who then make a choice. A single payer system can produce this.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #53
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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.
    And the government also inflates the military industrial complex.

    Homes are a better option IMHO.

  4. #54
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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Which party is more responsible for the state of the economy?

    And how did banks get too big to fail?

    I thought this was common knowledge:


    " Ten years ago to the day, the government reversed one of the key elements of the Depression-era banking laws, knocking down the firewall between commercial banks, which take deposits and make loans, and investment banks, which underwrite securities. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 was seen at the time as a way to help American banks grow larger and better compete on the world stage."

    “Without the watering down and ultimate repeal of Glass-Steagall, the banks would have been barred from most of these activities,” Demos said. “The market and appetite for derivatives would then have been far smaller, and Washington might not have felt a need to rescue the institutional victims.”
    10 Years Later, Looking at Repeal of Glass-Steagall - NYTimes.com
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.

    Explain the housing bubble in Ireland, and the UK?

    Explain the tech bubble using the same methodology?

    Heck explain the property bubbles in Japan in the 80s and China currently using the same methodology
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  6. #56
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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.
    Hold on CP...banks are more to blame than anyone else...subsidizing and making ridiculous loans are two different things...I have a guy that worked for me for years...got a divorce later in life and went bankrupt, got remarried right after going bankrupt applied for a 140,000 mortgage on a house selling for 130,000 because he didnt have the closing costs and HE GOT THE LOAN...thats not the govts fault...thats the LENDERS fault...lender beware....the banks thought they would make these loans...housing values would go up they would foreclose on SOME and make a killing...well they were wrong and they got banged...and WE bailed them out...and bush did the bailing out of the banks in his first stimulus.....so lets spread this blame around ok
    Many foreclosures are because people have been unemployed for two years and some more...and people that were layed off are now underemployed and cannot make their monthly bills. There are millions underwater on the mortgages not because it was originally a bad loan but because their housing values have dropped up to 60%....hell im not underwater but my house value in florida has dropped 40%....
    Last edited by lpast; 11-03-11 at 09:51 AM.

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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    And the government also inflates the military industrial complex.
    no, because government is generally a military monopsony. so rather than wrecking the economy (as a housing bubble can do), military spending just drains the economy.

  8. #58
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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Hold on CP...banks are more to blame than anyone else...subsidizing and making ridiculous loans are two different things...I have a guy that worked for me for years...got a divorce later in life and went bankrupt, got remarried right after going bankrupt applied for a 140,000 mortgage on a house selling for 130,000 because he didnt have the closing costs and HE GOT THE LOAN...thats not the govts fault...thats the LENDERS fault...lender beware....the banks thought they would make these loans...housing values would go up they would foreclose on SOME and make a killing...well they were wrong and they got banged...and WE bailed them out...and bush did the bailing out of the banks in his first stimulus.....so lets spread this blame around ok
    I don't think I would suggest that it is solely the government's fault. just that they created the conditions that fueled a bubble, twisting incentives. the banks shouldn't have given the loans? when massive numbers of Americans are lying on their loan applications - it is the banks' fault that every boomer thinks he deserves a McMansion so he can keep up with his idiot brother?

    government lowered the price of debt to fuel a bubble.
    government subsidized housing in particular and pushed banks into making sure that that bubble would be in housing
    government then richly rewarded the heads of the GSE's, who got off scott free. banks were easily just as much victims as perpetrators - but those guys were the straight up villains in this tale, and lah-te-dah, when you're barney frankl's boyfriend it means never having to say your sorry or give back your millions.

    Many foreclosures are because people have been unemployed for two years and some more...and people that were layed off are now underemployed and cannot make their monthly bills. There are millions underwater on the mortgages not because it was originally a bad loan but because their housing values have dropped up to 60%....hell im not underwater but my house value in florida has dropped 40%....
    which is why we never should have gotten into second mortgages, no-money-down loans, ninjja loans, HELOCs, or any of that crap. oh, but you know who did that? consumers. we the people dicked that dog.

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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I don't think I would suggest that it is solely the government's fault. just that they created the conditions that fueled a bubble, twisting incentives. the banks shouldn't have given the loans? when massive numbers of Americans are lying on their loan applications - it is the banks' fault that every boomer thinks he deserves a McMansion so he can keep up with his idiot brother?

    government lowered the price of debt to fuel a bubble.
    government subsidized housing in particular and pushed banks into making sure that that bubble would be in housing
    government then richly rewarded the heads of the GSE's, who got off scott free. banks were easily just as much victims as perpetrators - but those guys were the straight up villains in this tale, and lah-te-dah, when you're barney frankl's boyfriend it means never having to say your sorry or give back your millions.



    which is why we never should have gotten into second mortgages, no-money-down loans, ninjja loans, HELOCs, or any of that crap. oh, but you know who did that? consumers. we the people dicked that dog.
    CP what are you talking about...lieing on their application ? people have been lieing on loan applications since the cave man days...its the LENDER that supposed to check employment, check credit, etc...YOU the borrower pay for that in an Origination Fee...its always been that way....look man you cannot clean this up for the banks and blame anyone but them for the bad loans...period.

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    Re: Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

    Republicans, but only barely.

    It is the whole political system that is at fault, but it is the ideology of the Republican party that is the basis for much of the crisis we have today.
    PeteEU

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