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The Irrationality of Vigilant Wisdom?

Is it irrational/bigoted to have a slight wariness of Muslims?

  • Total voters
    16
Wake said:
..Numbers don't matter. A virtually indiscernable awareness is justified.
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yes, you have stated this.

this is why you feel that irrational fear against millions of Muslim-Americans is justified by the crimes of 19 non-American Muslims.
 
Wake said:
I guess in order to be rational I MUST trust all groups absolutely...
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we are talking about people. individual human beings. not groups.

and yes, unless you have a rational, logical, and intelligent basis for distrusting someone, u should give them the benefit of the doubt.
 
Thunder said:
we are talking about people. individual human beings. not groups.

and yes, unless you have a rational, logical, and intelligent basis for distrusting someone, u should give them the benefit of the doubt.
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I am talking about GROUPS, NOT INDIVIDUALS.

Stop derailing this topic.
 
Wake said:
Well, apparently, I've been told by at least 6 people among various forums that I'm irrational for not having complete trust, thus why I am a bit annoyed with this crap.
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You are not irrational for not having complete trust. Actually, its rather irrational to completely trust any group 100%.

What is irrational is to distrust a group more than you distrust a similar group simply due to an action perpetrated by a small minority of the first group...an action that is also at times present in those other similar groups as well.

For example, using the example YOU chose to use in your OP, its not irrational to not be fully trusting of all muslims. It is however irrational to distrust Muslims more than Christians, or Jews, or Athiests, because some have killed a lot of people.

Now, because something is irratoinal doesn't mean its not understandable.

Lets say you go to pet a dog and he immedietely bites you. It is irrational to be wary when trying to pet any dog after that because they may bite you, because by and large most dogs are not going to respond by biting you the moment you try to pet them. Its irrational to apply the actions of that one dog to ALL dogs through your actions. However, it is understandable that you are wary in the immediete aftermath because of the trauma of the incident.

It is even MORE irrational if you're wary of petting dogs after that point, but you're not wary when petting cats, snakes, or other pets that can bite.

It is entirely possible for an action to be both understandable and reasonable, while at the same time being illogical and irrational.

Its not irrational that you don't trust Muslims 100%. Its irrational that you distrust all of them to a greater degree because of terrorist attacks. However, due to the traumatic nature of the 9/11 attacks, I would say that such an irrational fear is also an understandable one.
 
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Another terrorist attack in the US is more than likely going to be committed by a Muslim, so excuse me for not being politically correct because I don't want to get blown up by some jihadist.
 
Thunder said:
u should give them the benefit of the doubt.
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This is opinion, and one I frankly disagree with. It is just as reasonble and rational to treat everyone with doubt until they've proven they're worthy of trust rather than the other way around. How one lives in that regard is entirely based on opinion and which is better is completely opinion based.
 
Whoppletraps said:
Another terrorist attack in the US is more than likely going to be committed by a Muslim, so excuse me for not being politically correct because I don't want to get blown up by some jihadist.
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ah, so you too wish to justify irrational prejudice against millions of Muslim-Americans, due to the actions of 19 NON-AMERICAN Muslims.

its amazing the lengths people will go to justify their hatred.
 
Zyphlin said:
You are not irrational for not having complete trust. Actually, its rather irrational to completely trust any group 100%.

What is irrational is to distrust a group more than you distrust a similar group simply due to an action perpetrated by a small minority of the first group...an action that is also at times present in those other similar groups as well.

For example, using the example YOU chose to use in your OP, its not irrational to not be fully trusting of all muslims. It is however irrational to distrust Muslims more than Christians, or Jews, or Athiests, because some have killed a lot of people.

Now, because something is irratoinal doesn't mean its not understandable.

Lets say you go to pet a dog and he immedietely bites you. It is irrational to be wary when trying to pet any dog after that because they may bite you, because by and large most dogs are not going to respond by biting you the moment you try to pet them. Its irrational to apply the actions of that one dog to ALL dogs through your actions. However, it is understandable that you are wary in the immediete aftermath because of the trauma of the incident.

It is even MORE irrational if you're wary of petting dogs after that point, but you're not wary when petting cats, snakes, or other pets that can bite.

It is entirely possible for an action to be both understandable and reasonable, while at the same time being illogical and irrational.

Its not irrational that you don't trust Muslims 100%. Its irrational that you distrust all of them to a greater degree because of terrorist attacks. However, due to the traumatic nature of the 9/11 attacks, I would say that such an irrational fear is also an understandable one.
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I add that there is no "greater degree." The same goes for Christians/political groups/other religions/etc.

I am sick of people baiting/distorting what I say. You want the truth? That is the truth. He continually baits/distorts what I say.
 
Whoppletraps said:
Another terrorist attack in the US is more than likely going to be committed by a Muslim, so excuse me for not being politically correct because I don't want to get blown up by some jihadist.
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I would likely agree that the next major terrorist attack on the country would likely be commited by a Muslim.

"Terrorist attack" as a generic thing, I think it'd be hard to say that its most likely to be commmitted by a Muslim. For example, there was apparently plans for someone to throw a bomb into the OWS people recently. That would've been a terrorist attack. Actions by an animal activist group that harms people or property can be a terrorist attack and is somewhat common and not muslim. Just a terrorist attack, of any size, I think is difficult to say will likely occur by a Muslim. Its possible, but no more likely than others I think.

I would say however its most likely that the next say, 50 deaths, that occur in America will be perpetrated by a person who identifies as Christian. I however am not any more wary of Christians due to that fact than I am anyone else.
 
Zyphlin said:
...I would say however its most likely that the next say, 50 deaths, that occur in America will be perpetrated by a person who identifies as Christian. I however am not any more wary of Christians due to that fact than I am anyone else.
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most of the major-casualty events in this country over the last 10 years, have been committed by Christians, NOT Muslims.

does this mean we should be fearful of Christians? certainly not.
 
Whoppletraps said:
Another terrorist attack in the US is more than likely going to be committed by a Muslim, so excuse me for not being politically correct because I don't want to get blown up by some jihadist.
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As was pointed out in another thread, you're more likely to die in a car accident than a jihadist attack. Are you more afraid of Muslims than you are of sitting in a car?
 
Moderator's Warning:
Enough of this basement level rhetoric and attempts to play mod.

Think someone is baiting or trolling...REPORT THEM. If I see another accusation of it in thread by anyone they're getting points.

At this point in this thread, lienency is also going away. The borderline baiting comments regarding people being or having "hatred", "bigotry", or other such statements stop. If you can't make your argument without making accusations of a personal nature about what a person feels and attempting to present your opinion of what that person thinks as some kind of fact I suggest you remove yourself from the thread, because if it continues you will be forcefully removed and given points.

Now get on topic and focus on the topic, let mods do the modding, and be civil
 
StillBallin75 said:
As was pointed out in another thread, you're more likely to die in a car accident than a jihadist attack. Are you more afraid of Muslims than you are of sitting in a car?
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Traumatic situations affect people in irrational ways. 9/11, arguably, was one of the most traumatic national events in this countries history and affected multiple people.

Its not uncommon for someone who has recently witnessed a nasty car crash to be wary of getting in a car. I know from personal experience I had a significant irrational fear of riding my Motorcycle for some time after experiencing a motorcycle crash and again later after hearing about a really really bad one.

Is it irrational to be more scared or worried about a Jihadist attack than a car accident? Yes, absolutely. Is it relatively understandable? IMHO yes. People drive every day and could NEVER significantly interact with a car accident in their entire lives. People alive and watching 9/11 however could very easily have been traumatized by that event and their psyche significant affected. Their irrational fear is just that, irrational, but I think its a bit irrational also not to be able to understand how some may feel that way.
 
Its very clear guys: 9-11 was committed by 19 Muslims who were NOT American citizens.

Muslims died in the towers. They have fought for us on the battlefields of Iraq & Afghanistan.

There is no logical nor rational reason to be wary or suspicious of Muslim-Americans.
 
That's another thing. I AM wary of cars, too. I'm a very careful person. Equally, I am wary of fast food, etc.
 
Whoppletraps said:
Another terrorist attack in the US is more than likely going to be committed by a Muslim, so excuse me for not being politically correct because I don't want to get blown up by some jihadist.
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But how often does it occur? I think I have a well better chance of being hit by a car on any given day than from being blown up by terrorists. In fact on my list of death probabilities, terrorists don't even really show up.
 
Wake said:
That's another thing. I AM wary of cars, too. I'm a very careful person. Equally, I am wary of fast food, etc.
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we are not talking about cars or fastfood.

we are talking about human beings, who have feelings...and rights.
 
Zyphlin said:
Traumatic situations affect people in irrational ways. 9/11, arguably, was one of the most traumatic national events in this countries history and affected multiple people.

Its not uncommon for someone who has recently witnessed a nasty car crash to be wary of getting in a car. I know from personal experience I had a significant irrational fear of riding my Motorcycle for some time after experiencing a motorcycle crash and again later after hearing about a really really bad one.

Is it irrational to be more scared or worried about a Jihadist attack than a car accident? Yes, absolutely. Is it relatively understandable? IMHO yes. People drive every day and could NEVER significantly interact with a car accident in their entire lives. People alive and watching 9/11 however could very easily have been traumatized by that event and their psyche significant affected. Their irrational fear is just that, irrational, but I think its a bit irrational also not to be able to understand how some may feel that way.
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Agreed. While it might not be rational, a woman who gets robbed by a black man on the street is likely to be more wary of black men in the aftermath of that event. Is it understandable? Yes. Is it rational? No. If we were talking about individuals, this wouldn't be that big a deal, but we have a sizable portion of our population using 9/11 as an excuse to profile and engage in prejudice and discrimination. Moreover, the media sensationalization shapes our perceptions on such issues, so that we may have a distorted perception and fear of Muslims in relation to things that are actually more likely to kill us.
 
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Thunder said:
we are not talking about cars or fastfood.

we are talking about human beings, who have feelings...and rights.
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I respectfully disagree. We are talking about groups. However, I agreed with Zyphlin's bit about being wary about cars.
 
Wake said:
I respectfully disagree. We are talking about groups. However, I agreed with Zyphlin's bit about being wary about cars.
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did you notice he mentioned having an irrational fear of motorcycles for a while?

many fears are irrational. why? because they are not based on logic or rational thinking.
 
Thunder said:
Its very clear guys: 9-11 was committed by 19 Muslims who were NOT American citizens.

Muslims died in the towers. They have fought for us on the battlefields of Iraq & Afghanistan.

There is no logical nor rational reason to be wary or suspicious of Muslim-Americans.
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Of coures there is.

They are human beings. Human beings can murder, rape, kill, steal, assult, cheat, and lie. There's nothing special about Muslims that make them the pinnacle of trustworthiness or some kind of saints. Its absolutely reasonable and rational to be wary or supsicious of Muslim-Americans.

Its just not rational to distrust them to a larger degree simply because of 9/11.

I will say though that it may be arguable that its reasonable to do so, in similar to the way I spoke about it being understandable. IE, due to the trauma of the event and the way people react to such I think its reasonable that some may feel that way even if its not logical or rational, because its actually someone rational and logical that people will react to trauma in an illogical and irrational way.
 
Thunder said:
we are talking about human beings, who have feelings...and rights.
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No one has the right to be trusted, believed, or given the benefit of the doubt on an individual level.
 
Zyphlin said:
No one has the right to be trusted, believed, or given the benefit of the doubt on an individual level.
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I humbly disagree.

I believe we all have the basic human right to be judged by our own behavior, deeds & record, and not by those who happen to claim to be of the same religion as us.
 
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