View Poll Results: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

Voters
17. You may not vote on this poll
  • The poor should be banned from voting

    13 76.47%
  • The richest 10% should be banned from voting

    2 11.76%
  • The top 1% should be banned from voting

    1 5.88%
  • Only the middle class should be allowed to vote

    1 5.88%
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Thread: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

  1. #221
    Sage

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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    re: Limiting voting rights to those who have "proven" themselves worthy.

    First, unreasonably subjective. Who decides?

    Second, the potential for abuse is rampant.

    Third, and most important in my mind, is the short-sightedness and hypocrisy. The people who want to limit others who haven't 'earned' it, in part because they fear those others might somehow vote their self-interests, are actually guilty of the same premise. They want only people who are like themselves, whether it be in work ethic and/or mindset, participating. They're good at talking the talk of freedom, but failing miserably at walking the walk. It's really nothing more than thinly-veiled discrimination.
    Bingo, people who want to limit the right to vote determine limits with a certain type of person in mind and whether or not they realize it, the person is shaped partly in the image of themselves where they treat their own subjective values as an objective measure of worthiness. That is what makes it a dangerous proposition.

  2. #222
    Sage

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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Considering the extent to which I am seeing this meme, I suspect that it is being "framed" so that it will sound reasonable the next time the Republicans are in full control.
    Absolutely that is the strategy. They are laying the foundation and groundwork to get such ideas into the public discourse and then eventually attempt to enact such repressive measures into law.

    I believe all this is strongly connected into the demographic projections for a white minority in forty or fifty years and what it could mean to the white persons party - the GOP.
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  3. #223
    Politically Correct

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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    I think a lot of conservatives think that it is -- not easy -- but reasonably achievable for people to pull themselves up out of poverty and get off government support. I think this is a somewhat understandable but misguided takeaway from the fact that it is very very easy to become poor. The threat of poverty hangs over the majority of americans at all times, especially during a recession. It's only natural for someone to think, I could lose my job at any time, but I would never be one of those people on welfare for the rest of my life. I'd find something to do to pay for necessities, without government help. And that is probably true.

    But the fundamental misunderstanding is that the people who are stuck on food stamps and other social programs are not like you at all. Conservatives should ask themselves what type of work they would be able to find without their college education (and probably not even a high school diploma), without the influence of educated parents, without any substantial connections to people of more than minimal status or wealth, without any disposable income, without any credit history, without a reliable means of transportation, and without any work experience at a job other than delivering pizzas, washing dishes, working at the equivalent of a fast-food restaurant, or being a janitor. Add to that the possibility that you may suffer from questionable decision-making abilities, stemming from any number of problems, from lack of education to some sort of actual mental problem. What type of opportunities can such a person create for himself? Then maybe you should subtract some of the government services these people get, from food stamps to educational loans, and then ask yourself the question again.

    There is an overwhelming sense among the poor that it is pointless to work hard and try to achieve success, I don't dispute that. But I think that feeling stems more from the overwhelming obstacles of their situation than it does from their satisfaction living on government benefits. The fact that there are so few people who have made it from the bottom to the top is not because poor people don't want to work hard. It's because their future was largely decided before they turned 18. The people who rise up from poverty, almost exclusively, are those who either worked hard from childhood or those who fell into poverty late in life.

    I submit to you that the reason we have so many people who can't support themselves is not because we effectively incentivize them to remain in poverty, but because we don't provide/mandate enough opportunity for them to rise out of poverty. The amount people get from the federal government in most cases is enough to survive, but not enough to remedy a lack of education and work experience. The choice, in my mind, is either to cut benefits and eradicate poverty by eradicating (literally) the poor, or creating/mandating opportunities for them (focusing on the education of children) so that we don't end up paying for their food and housing for the rest of their lives. But that will cost more, not less, than we are already spending, at least in the short-term. Or you can continue with the current system, which I agree is ineffective in any way other than keeping people alive.
    Last edited by Cameron; 10-30-11 at 01:32 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  4. #224
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Punishment for a crime is not the same thing and legal. Your reply is nothing more than a fallacy as you know what I meant.
    Actually the thirteenth amendment defines imprisonment as slavery:

    Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  5. #225
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Benjamin Franklin spoke those words long before a whole litany of democratic reforms were instituted for some 200 years after he was dead and buried. Those democratic reforms would include
    *** expansion of voting rights among non property owners
    *** expanding voting rights to African Americans and people of color
    *** expanding voting rights to female citizens
    *** expanding voting rights to citizens 18 to 20 years of age
    *** abolishing the poll tax, literacy test and other obstacles to voting
    *** introducing voter driven procedures such as recall, initiative and referendum to give citizens a direct voice
    *** changing how US Senators are elected
    *** creating legislative districts in which one man and one vote are the guiding principle

    All of these democratic reforms - plus others - have significantly altered the structure of our political system from the pure Constitutional republic that Franklin knew. Today, we are very much a Constitutional democratic republic.
    thanks for the history lesson. I notice a couple of errors (that last part should read "one man, one vote, so long as that one man is a minority, and his minority is the majority in the district"), but over all very good.

    it does nothing to address the actual point, mind you, but you seem to have been boning up since the time you didn't realize that FDR initiated agricultural price floors, and I'm always in favor of people reading history

  6. #226
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Where does it say in the Constitution that felons shouldn't be allowed to vote?
    It doesn't. But they shouldn't. At least not until they've served their sentence.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  7. #227
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    how is that extreme right? the founders didn't want those who had no skin in the game voting away the wealth of those who did
    Yeah, but there was a functionally infinite Commons at that point where a man could go build himself a plave in the wilderness by the strength of his own hand.

    Now every square inch is owned and somebody must pay for one to sleep legally in the US.

    The game is FUNDAMENTALLY different than it was then.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  8. #228
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I'm a liberal, and I don't plan on being poor forever. I'm receiving a Pell Grant, but I'm certainly not addicted to government "handouts". Your argument is flawed, and all you want to do is demonize the people you disagree with. For someone who goes on about how liberals piss and moan about the rich, you sure do your fair share pissing and moaning about the poor.
    I don't wine about the poor but the poverty pimps who use them to gain power and the parasites who demand others pay for them. and unlike the poor who don't pay for my existence, I do pay for some of their existence. I think that gives me a bit more standing



  9. #229
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Yeah, but there was a functionally infinite Commons at that point where a man could go build himself a plave in the wilderness by the strength of his own hand.

    Now every square inch is owned and somebody must pay for one to sleep legally in the US.

    The game is FUNDAMENTALLY different than it was then.
    true and false.



  10. #230
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Yeah, but there was a functionally infinite Commons at that point where a man could go build himself a plave in the wilderness by the strength of his own hand.

    Now every square inch is owned and somebody must pay for one to sleep legally in the US.

    The game is FUNDAMENTALLY different than it was then.
    Theoretically, one could still go "live off the grid" in the wilderness, but it's extremely difficult as they would be harassed as vagrants whenever they crossed paths with local law enforcement. That doesn't negate your point, though, and I agree with it.

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