View Poll Results: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

Voters
17. You may not vote on this poll
  • The poor should be banned from voting

    13 76.47%
  • The richest 10% should be banned from voting

    2 11.76%
  • The top 1% should be banned from voting

    1 5.88%
  • Only the middle class should be allowed to vote

    1 5.88%
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Thread: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

  1. #191
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Why does every option ban someone from voting?

  2. #192
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I actually don't agree that military service should ensure the privilege of voting.
    Military pays pretty good wages and benefits.

    Not sure on that yet though.
    it depends on where you are at in the military. if you're on the lower end of the enlisted ranks, your "compensation" is mostly the fact that you live in the barracks, eat at the chow hall, and have a medic/corpsman on hand if you break a bone. the government counts half of a barracks room (think, dorm room at college, but not as nice) as the financial equivalent of a two to three bedroom apartment, so I'm not positive that "compensation" is being judged accurately. field grade officers, senior SNCO's and up do pretty well, considering - but generally speaking at that point they can leave the military to generously increase their pay.

    as for making it a voting requirement? the logic was simply that you should be required to demonstrate your willingness to put the good of the nation ahead of your own before you should be allowed to control that nation. I would imagine there would be alot of fields (police, fire fighters) who fall under the same premise.

    Poll testing doesn't really provide a net public good.
    you don't consider bumping up our electorate to where it is at least semi-educated and semi-aware a public good?

    I'd like to see both left, right and center working together to get the road sides cleaned up.
    and then we can all hold hands and buy the world a coke, but until then perhaps we should have a better selection structure.

  3. #193
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it depends on where you are at in the military. if you're on the lower end of the enlisted ranks, your "compensation" is mostly the fact that you live in the barracks, eat at the chow hall, and have a medic/corpsman on hand if you break a bone. the government counts half of a barracks room (think, dorm room at college, but not as nice) as the financial equivalent of a two to three bedroom apartment, so I'm not positive that "compensation" is being judged accurately. field grade officers, senior SNCO's and up do pretty well, considering - but generally speaking at that point they can leave the military to generously increase their pay.

    as for making it a voting requirement? the logic was simply that you should be required to demonstrate your willingness to put the good of the nation ahead of your own before you should be allowed to control that nation. I would imagine there would be alot of fields (police, fire fighters) who fall under the same premise.
    I understand, and it's not because I hate the military or anything like that, but there would be a great deal of argument on if they actually qualified as contributing.
    Because in many ways it's a job and they get paid for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you don't consider bumping up our electorate to where it is at least semi-educated and semi-aware a public good?
    I'd rather a lot of these oh so precious individuals, get their hands dirty doing some work.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and then we can all hold hands and buy the world a coke, but until then perhaps we should have a better selection structure.
    It isn't meant to "unite" people but to put them to work.
    So they could "earn" their voice.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I understand, and it's not because I hate the military or anything like that, but there would be a great deal of argument on if they actually qualified as contributing.
    Because in many ways it's a job and they get paid for it.
    eh, that's a debate for another day. I could probably get just under triple my pay if I went private sector (which is one of the reasons that after this tou I probably will).

    I'd rather a lot of these oh so precious individuals, get their hands dirty doing some work.



    It isn't meant to "unite" people but to put them to work.
    So they could "earn" their voice.
    hmm. well, i'm down for workfare. perhaps we could offer dual systems - welfare and workfare, but if you choose welfare no votey.

  5. #195
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Here is why this poll and the people boo hooing about poor people getting to vote need to chill out. First, it's a democracy. Second according to Websters:

    1
    a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
    2
    : a political unit that has a democratic government
    3
    capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy — C. M. Roberts>
    4
    : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
    5
    : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

    Essentially what people such as Turtledude is asking for is a warped form of the democracy our founding fathers wanted, one that will never happen.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  6. #196
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    well, that is probably because we don't have a democracy, John. We have a representative republic, and with good reason.

    Partly for the precise reason under discussion; as Benjamin Franklin put it: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." Any time you set up the circumstances where a majority of voters can decide to give themselves largess that they take from a minority voters, you are setting up a massive incentive for them to do so, a massive incentive for worthless politicians to find a way to justify it, and a massive incentive on the part of the Lamb to either get out of dodge or invest in some weaponry and challenge the vote.

    as for the how the founders viewed the franchise - they left it up to the states. some had more restrictions, some less.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-30-11 at 06:06 AM.

  7. #197
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It's not a plebeian system.
    A rose by any other name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    There is no constitutional right to vote, at the federal level.
    I know most people don't digest this well, because they have to do something to get something.
    Who is talking about just the Federal level? Nice dodge.

    People should not be forced to do anything to have a say in the government of the country, state or community they live. It has to do with the whole taxation without representation thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #198
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Here is why this poll and the people boo hooing about poor people getting to vote need to chill out. First, it's a democracy. Second according to Websters:

    1
    a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
    2
    : a political unit that has a democratic government
    3
    capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy — C. M. Roberts>
    4
    : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
    5
    : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

    Essentially what people such as Turtledude is asking for is a warped form of the democracy our founding fathers wanted, one that will never happen.


    We are not a 'Democracy' we are a Democratic Republic or constitutional republic which are forms of democracy. The definition you are using is a "pure" or "direct" democracy.

    So we are...

    Republic :

    a: a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government.
    b: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.

    We are not...

    Democracy:

    a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority.
    b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.
    Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #199
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    from Turtle Dude

    One of the main reasons why that happens is that too many politicians find advocating or engaging in massive spending actually gets them elected
    You have claimed this many times in many threads and despite being challenged to support this boast with actual evidence of it you NEVER provide any actual verifiable evidence of this happening in real life.

    and how does that happen? they promise a majority of the voters in their district or state, or city more and more spending but they also tell the majority that the majority won't have to pay for this increased spending. rather the rich will
    Again, you keep saying stuff like this over and over and over again but you NEVER provide any verifiable evidence that this is actually happening in real life.

    the majority continues to demand more spending because they don't get taxed more and more to pay for it.

    People are taxed - the vast vast majority of Americans pay lots of taxes. Your claim that the majority want more spending because they do not pay taxes is factually wrong and a falsehood.


    Now the GOP is not blameless, They are afraid to cut off the addicts so they keep the public teat supplied with milk but they don't raise taxes on the rich to pay for it (whether raising taxes on the rich actually brings in more money for say more than a year or so is a dubious proposition).
    The GOP certainly are not blameless but the reason you give is simply a right wing cause celebre and talking point. The reality is that the GOP was firmly behind the 2001 and 2003 BUSH TAX CUTS which created the situation today where 47% of workers pay no federal income tax. They certainly pay lots of other taxes and pay much higher percentages of their income for some of those taxes than do the wealthy, but the fact that 47% pay no federal income tax can be traced back to a Republican President and the YES votes for both bills - 93% of which were supplied by Republican members of the House and Senate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts
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  10. #200
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    Re: Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well, that is probably because we don't have a democracy, John. We have a representative republic, and with good reason.

    Partly for the precise reason under discussion; as Benjamin Franklin put it: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." Any time you set up the circumstances where a majority of voters can decide to give themselves largess that they take from a minority voters, you are setting up a massive incentive for them to do so, a massive incentive for worthless politicians to find a way to justify it, and a massive incentive on the part of the Lamb to either get out of dodge or invest in some weaponry and challenge the vote.

    as for the how the founders viewed the franchise - they left it up to the states. some had more restrictions, some less.
    Benjamin Franklin spoke those words long before a whole litany of democratic reforms were instituted for some 200 years after he was dead and buried. Those democratic reforms would include
    *** expansion of voting rights among non property owners
    *** expanding voting rights to African Americans and people of color
    *** expanding voting rights to female citizens
    *** expanding voting rights to citizens 18 to 20 years of age
    *** abolishing the poll tax, literacy test and other obstacles to voting
    *** introducing voter driven procedures such as recall, initiative and referendum to give citizens a direct voice
    *** changing how US Senators are elected
    *** creating legislative districts in which one man and one vote are the guiding principle

    All of these democratic reforms - plus others - have significantly altered the structure of our political system from the pure Constitutional republic that Franklin knew. Today, we are very much a Constitutional democratic republic.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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