View Poll Results: Are You Voting November 8th?

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24. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I vote in every election.

    15 62.50%
  • No, I never vote.

    1 4.17%
  • No, I don't vote unless I have a candidate I'm supporting.

    4 16.67%
  • No, I can't vote.

    4 16.67%
  • Undecided.

    0 0%
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Thread: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

  1. #71
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Generally because I support any institution that gives members of the middle class political and economic power.
    The problem is that public sector unions give the middle class economic power at the expense of the poor. Look at teachers' unions. They may be great for mostly middle-class, well-educated teachers...but they're horrible for underprivileged, mostly minority children living in underfunded urban school districts.

    Public sector unions don't really deserve the interest of the country -- that is, making it a good place to live for the entire body of the people who live here -- but neither does Wall-Street. Depriving Unions of political power creates a power vacuum that enables Wall Street lobbyists to obtain even more influence. Unions may be the enemy of my wallet, but they are rivals to Wall-Street, and the lesser enemy of my greater enemy is my grudging ally.
    Maybe that makes sense for private-sector unions (although I question the logic even there), but why for public sector unions? What interests of Wall Street lobbyists are public sector unions protecting us against? I think that liberals and conservatives can agree (albeit for different reasons) that we should get the best-quality government services for the cheapest price possible. A public sector union, practically by definition, is interested in lobbying to make it more expensive for the taxpayer to get a given quality of government service.

    As far as the economic side of it goes, Unions aren't the fairest or most effective means of wealth redistribution, but they're better than nothing.
    They're redistributing wealth up the economic ladder, from the poor to the middle-class. Unfortunately public sector unions are not standing up to The Man. They ARE The Man.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The problem is that public sector unions give the middle class economic power at the expense of the poor. Look at teachers' unions. They may be great for mostly middle-class, well-educated teachers...but they're horrible for underprivileged, mostly minority children living in underfunded urban school districts.



    Maybe that makes sense for private-sector unions (although I question the logic even there), but why for public sector unions? What interests of Wall Street lobbyists are public sector unions protecting us against? I think that liberals and conservatives can agree (albeit for different reasons) that we should get the best-quality government services for the cheapest price possible. A public sector union, practically by definition, is interested in lobbying to make it more expensive for the taxpayer to get a given quality of government service.



    They're redistributing wealth up the economic ladder, from the poor to the middle-class. Unfortunately public sector unions are not standing up to The Man. They ARE The Man.
    This to me, seems so intuitive that almost everyone should agree, regardless of political stripe.

    To put it in the most simplest terms, the unions are a business that have the exclusive ability to sell labor to the government.
    In any other scenario, people would be outraged at such a government/business partnership.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    This to me, seems so intuitive that almost everyone should agree, regardless of political stripe.

    To put it in the most simplest terms, the unions are a business that have the exclusive ability to sell labor to the government.
    In any other scenario, people would be outraged at such a government/business partnership.
    The fact that they are not should tell you how false your comparison is.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The problem is that public sector unions give the middle class economic power at the expense of the poor. Look at teachers' unions. They may be great for mostly middle-class, well-educated teachers...but they're horrible for underprivileged, mostly minority children living in underfunded urban school districts.



    Maybe that makes sense for private-sector unions (although I question the logic even there), but why for public sector unions? What interests of Wall Street lobbyists are public sector unions protecting us against? I think that liberals and conservatives can agree (albeit for different reasons) that we should get the best-quality government services for the cheapest price possible. A public sector union, practically by definition, is interested in lobbying to make it more expensive for the taxpayer to get a given quality of government service.



    They're redistributing wealth up the economic ladder, from the poor to the middle-class. Unfortunately public sector unions are not standing up to The Man. They ARE The Man.
    I'm mostly indifferent about the issue of public sector unions. Most people who get a little bit of power will abuse it to press their own self-interest over that of others. In answer to Harry's earlier question, no, I don't trust the public, once empowered to do so, to give public employees a fair shake if it means less taxes for them.

    The truth of the matter is, I'm against representation of groups in general. There are ways to evaluate what different groups of people deserve according to their deeds, and what they need to survive and enable civilization to function and prosper. Factions rarely embrace those ways, so I don't want to hear what they have to say for themselves and their interests.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 11-07-11 at 09:03 PM.
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  5. #75
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The problem is that public sector unions give the middle class economic power at the expense of the poor. Look at teachers' unions. They may be great for mostly middle-class, well-educated teachers...but they're horrible for underprivileged, mostly minority children living in underfunded urban school districts.
    How so? Teacher unions fight for smaller class sizes, school safety and more resources and have little to no say in education policy.

  6. #76
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    How so? Teacher unions fight for smaller class sizes, school safety and more resources and have little to no say in education policy.
    Teachers unions only fight for things that benefit themselves (i.e. smaller class sizes = more teachers = more dues-paying members)...and they stand in the way of effective policies like getting rid of bad teachers and demanding accountability. Frankly they are the single biggest impediment our nation faces in fixing its failing schools.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-07-11 at 09:13 PM.
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  7. #77
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Teachers unions only fight for things that benefit themselves (i.e. smaller class sizes = more teachers = more dues-paying members)...
    First, smaller class sizes and safer schools benefit students tremendously so even if it's true that they fight for them for the reasons you mentioned, it doesn't matter if they don't have a negative impact on education. Oftentimes, the interests of students line up with that of the teachers.

    Second, while 'more teachers' may be one reason, most teachers also want smaller class sizes because they enable them to more effectively teach and most of them also want the best for their students and it turns out that smaller class sizes are good for students.

    and they stand in the way of effective policies like getting rid of bad teachers and demanding accountability.
    Can you be more specific?

    Frankly they are the single biggest impediment our nation faces in fixing its failing schools.
    Can you substantiate this claim? Which policies are the biggest impediment to education and how have teachers' unions prevented them from being eradicated?

  8. #78
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Teachers unions only fight for things that benefit themselves (i.e. smaller class sizes = more teachers = more dues-paying members)...and they stand in the way of effective policies like getting rid of bad teachers and demanding accountability. Frankly they are the single biggest impediment our nation faces in fixing its failing schools.
    Their self-interest and partiality to "their own" doesn't help, but I can think of a few worse obstacles. Like a complete lack of vision over what a good education program would be to prepare students for life in the 21st century.

    Can you be more specific?
    Unions reward seniority above merit, for example. It's less about results and ability at teaching as it is about the durability and strength of your associations within the institution; like any other kind of networking.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 11-07-11 at 09:23 PM.
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  9. #79
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Unions reward seniority above merit, for example.
    That's not really true. They reward seniority and continued education. Your pay increases with time (as it does in most careers) and with the level of education you have achieved. It other words, it encourages teachers to acquire more education for their specialty which is great in my opinion. They also emphasize teacher certification is also good for students (non-union schools do not require certification). In other words, they support incentives for teachers to improve upon their ability to teach.

    What unions do not support is tying a teacher's evaluation to things like standardized testing and grades. Because so many factors that have nothing to do with a teacher go into how students perform in school, it is unwise to tie a teacher's evaluation to that performance. In fact, it's actually unwise to even tie a student's evaluation to standardized tests for many reasons. If you've been paying attention, however, you should notice that teacher unions' have said that they are open to changing certain aspects of teacher evaluation, but just because they aren't open to the types of evaluations being proposed does not mean they are against it in general.

    It's less about results and ability at teaching as it is about the durability and strength of your associations within the institution; like any other kind of networking.
    That's directly contrary to most teachers' unions support of pay increases tied to advanced education and teacher certification.

  10. #80
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    Re: Are You Voting Next Tuesday?

    That's not really true. They reward seniority and continued education. Your pay increases with time (as it does in most careers) and with the level of education you have achieved. It other words, it encourages teachers to acquire more education for their specialty which is great in my opinion. They also emphasize teacher certification is also good for students (non-union schools do not require certification). In other words, they support incentives for teachers to improve upon their ability to teach.

    What unions do not support is tying a teacher's evaluation to things like standardized testing and grades. Because so many factors that have nothing to do with a teacher go into how students perform in school, it is unwise to tie a teacher's evaluation to that performance. In fact, it's actually unwise to even tie a student's evaluation to standardized tests for many reasons. If you've been paying attention, however, you should notice that teacher unions' have said that they are open to changing certain aspects of teacher evaluation, but just because they aren't open to the types of evaluations being proposed does not mean they are against it in general.
    That's all great in theory and in reality is sometimes the case, but not every individual teacher or district is motivated by that level of idealism. Furthermore, it disregards the reason why seniority is valued in Unions, which is to encourage people to join the Unions early and belong to them for the duration of your career so as to maximize the overall benefits.

    That's directly contrary to most teachers' unions support of pay increases tied to advanced education and teacher certification.
    I think the cost-benefit of analysis to making teachers better at working in the current system compared with overhauling the system (and creating disorder in the education jobs market) is low. Sure, it makes things better, but our current vision of what education should be like is so off that the difference doesn't amount to any positive economic and political change for the next generation.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 11-07-11 at 09:47 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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