Get White Boy Drunk: Is That Racist?

mac said:

The racism had it's foundations in slavery and segregation, certainly, but it is perpetuated by ignorance.

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Ignorance of what?

Further, the height of the light skin/dark skin thing has passed. Being light skinned myself, I experienced some of that animosity in my younger years, but can honestly say I've seen none of it in my adult years.

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I disagree with this. My mother was a public school teacher in a black neighborhood until last year for 39 years and according to her, the light/dark skin thing is still prevalent. I also worked with an all black group of kids a 2-3 years ago who were in high school and they literally talked about it every day. It might become less prevalent in adulthood as people mature, but in my experience is still pretty prevalent among younger people.

mac said:

What makes you think that any still do?

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Because I know them. Not only have I worked with people who make these comments, but I also have black family members who talk about it (not frequently though). I've never seen it, but I'm pretty sure this is the exact issue Chris Rock explored in his documentary "Good Hair". It's something I'm pretty familiar with as a common topic of disagreement among blacks.

Also, black people straightening their hair or whatever is not necessarily a sign of self-loathing and I've never said nor implied that so the implication that I have is unwarranted.

theplaydrive said:

Ignorance of what?

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General ignorance...the same ignorance that makes stupid white people thing they are better than someone else because of the color of their skin. When you have nothing, anything is something.

I disagree with this. My mother was a public school teacher in a black neighborhood until last year for 39 years and according to her, the light/dark skin thing is still prevalent. I also worked with an all black group of kids a 2-3 years ago who were in high school and they literally talked about it every day. It might become less prevalent in adulthood as people mature, but in my experience is still pretty prevalent among younger people.

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Well, with all due respect to your mother that worked in a black neighborhood....I am black, from a black neighborhood, and I volunteer tutor in predominately black schools now. It's prevalent (to a far lesser extent than when I was young) in younger kids for the same reasons that clothes and hairstyles are important. Appearance means everything to teens.

There has always been a double standard in language between the races....black boy is a mortal sin and whiteboy terminology is acceptable speech.
If were going to ever breach the racial gap....language has to be considered equally abhorrent whether its a black saying it or a white...its absurd to say its ok to say whiteboy whatever and OMG you cant say blackboy whatever.....the term cracker is used as negatively to describe whites outside of the south as the N word is....We need to stop all of it...not just half of it....
Now did I take the statement in the original post as racist...no I didnt...but theres many times words directed at blacks are being usued without any raciist intent and get blown all out of whack....stop it all and it will be better for all...lets call it mutual respect

theplaydrive said:

Because I know them. Not only have I worked with people who make these comments, but I also have black family members who talk about it (not frequently though). I've never seen it, but I'm pretty sure this is the exact issue Chris Rock explored in his documentary "Good Hair". It's something I'm pretty familiar with as a common topic of disagreement among blacks.

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You know them, hmm, ok.

Also, black people straightening their hair or whatever is not necessarily a sign of self-loathing and I've never said nor implied that so the implication that I have is unwarranted.

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You mistook what I said. I'm not saying you implied self-loathing. I'm saying that much of the cosmetic changes we all bring about in ourselves is often based on a self-loathing of some level. We all have things about our appearances we don't particularly like and often take steps in varying stages of extremity to alter or cover up that thing.

mac said:

General ignorance...the same ignorance that makes stupid white people thing they are better than someone else because of the color of their skin. When you have nothing, anything is something.

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White people who believe in their racial superiority don't just have "general ignorance". It's ignorance of science, ignorance of history or whatever, but it's not just "general". It's the same for black people or any other person who believes that their skin color, hair color, height or whatever isn't good enough. There is always a specific cause. For a girl who wants to be stick thin, the cause may be the value that skinny people are given in society even if she isn't conscious of its influence on her. For a black guy who wants lighter skin, the cause may be the value that white people are given in society even if he is not conscious of its influence.

I don't think it would wrongheaded for me to assume that the majority of people who have ZERO qualms with someone arguing that many women who strive to be a size 0 do so because of the value skinny women are given over heavier ones in much of society. For this reason, I find it strange that so many object to the argument that many blacks who speak of "good hair" and "light skin is better" do so because the value whites have been and are often given in much of society.

Well, with all due respect to your mother that worked in a black neighborhood....I am black, from a black neighborhood, and I volunteer tutor in predominately black schools now. It's prevalent (to a far lesser extent than when I was young) in younger kids for the same reasons that clothes and hairstyles are important. Appearance means everything to teens.

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With all due respect to you, experience is experience. You've had experiences, I've had experiences and my mother has had experiences so I'm not about to give you more credit because you're black, grew up in a black neighborhood and volunteer tutor in one if that was the intent of you including that information - if not, oops. And as I said, it's predominant among younger kids so yes, I agree with your points about teens.

mac said:

You know them, hmm, ok.

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I do. Sorry. :shrug:

You mistook what I said. I'm not saying you implied self-loathing. I'm saying that much of the cosmetic changes we all bring about in ourselves is often based on a self-loathing of some level. We all have things about our appearances we don't particularly like and often take steps in varying stages of extremity to alter or cover up that thing.

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I agree and everyone has different reasons for their self-loathing and some groups share those reasons with another. Americans share reasons. Italians share reasons. Women share reasons. Whites share reasons. And blacks share reasons. That's pretty much my point. The reasons exist and slavery/segregation are part of the reasons for black self-loathing. They are different for other groups.

theplaydrive said:

White people who believe in their racial superiority don't just have "general ignorance". It's ignorance of science, ignorance of history or whatever, but it's not just "general". It's the same for black people or any other person who believes that their skin color, hair color, height or whatever isn't good enough. There is always a specific cause. For a girl who wants to be stick thin, the cause may be the value that skinny people are given in society even if she isn't conscious of its influence on her. For a black guy who wants lighter skin, the cause may be the value that white people are given in society even if he is not conscious of its influence.

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Or maybe he like light skin better than dark skin. :shrug:

I don't think it would wrongheaded for me to assume that the majority of people who have ZERO qualms with someone arguing that many women who strive to be a size 0 do so because of the value skinny women are given over heavier ones in much of society. For this reason, I find it strange that so many object to the argument that many blacks who speak of "good hair" and "light skin is better" do so because the value whites have been and are often given in much of society.

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This assumes that blacks are simply reacting to white society and have no input in it on their own. This may have been the case 100 years ago...but is not the case now. In the last 20 years, black culture has nearly taken over as the prime impact on youth culture and as a result, at least partially, young black people are more prone to embrace "being black" than they were 20 years ago.

With all due respect to you, experience is experience. You've had experiences, I've had experiences and my mother has had experiences so I'm not about to give you more credit because you're black, grew up in a black neighborhood and volunteer tutor in one if that was the intent of you including that information - if not, oops. And as I said, it's predominant among younger kids so yes, I agree with your points about teens.

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Again, with respect....your experiences are that of observers.

theplaydrive said:

I do. Sorry. :shrug:

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Well, Sir, I am them, and you don't know me.

I agree and everyone has different reasons for their self-loathing and some groups share those reasons with another. Americans share reasons. Italians share reasons. Women share reasons. Whites share reasons. And blacks share reasons. That's pretty much my point. The reasons exist and slavery/segregation are part of the reasons for black self-loathing. They are different for other groups.

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Part of the reason yes, to say it is the only reason, as the unmentionable claimed earlier, is false.

mac said:

Well, Sir, I am them, and you don't know me.

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I never said I knew you. I said I know black people who make such comments. Please do not twist my words.

Part of the reason yes, to say it is the only reason, as the unmentionable claimed earlier, is false.

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I never said it was the only reason. In fact, I stated the opposite several times. Please read my comments.

theplaydrive said:

I never said I knew you. I said I know black people who make such comments. Please do not twist my words.

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I'm not twisting your words. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say you know some black people that made some comments?

I never said it was the only reason. In fact, I stated the opposite several times. Please read my comments.

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I didn't say you did. I said someone else did, and you agreed with it. Please read my comment.

mac said:

Or maybe he like light skin better than dark skin. :shrug:

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I agree, in fact, that's a possibility and a reality that I talked about in my earlier posts. My point has always been that the reality I just talked about exists. It's getting a bit frustrating to see that you're not reading my posts.

This assumes that blacks are simply reacting to white society and have no input in it on their own. This may have been the case 100 years ago...but is not the case now. In the last 20 years, black culture has nearly taken over as the prime impact on youth culture and as a result, at least partially, young black people are more prone to embrace "being black" than they were 20 years ago.

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No it doesn't. It assumes that black people are like everybody else - they react to their society, their surroundings. It seems to me that you and others are trying to make blacks the exception to the rule. We accept that everyone else in society is affected by the images presented to them. Why is it different for black people?

Again, with respect....your experiences are that of observers.

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Well then it's a good thing we're talking about observations. :shrug:

theplaydrive said:

So why do you think some blacks consider skin tone and hair texture that more closely resembles white people superior to darker skin/natural hair?

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That is not for me to answer.....

Because my answer is... "Because they do."

Conversely, I cannot answer the question to why we find tan women as opposed to pale women attractive either.

mac said:

I'm not twisting your words. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say you know some black people that made some comments?

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That's what I said. I know black people who made such comments just like I know white people who have said they like steak. And you did twist my words. Why on Earth would you consider it relevant to let me know that I don't know you without the premise that I claimed to know you.

I didn't say you did. I said someone else did, and you agreed with it. Please read my comment.

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You're right. My mistake.

Caine said:

That is not for me to answer.....

Because my answer is... "Because they do."

Conversely, I cannot answer the question to why we find tan women as opposed to pale women attractive either.

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Okay, well I like understand things beyond "just because".

theplaydrive said:

I agree, in fact, that's a possibility and a reality that I talked about in my earlier posts. My point has always been that the reality I just talked about exists. It's getting a bit frustrating to see that you're not reading my posts.

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The point is, you don't know what the reason is. Even someone told you they wish they were white because it's "better" you still don't know. What you know is what one person thinks.

No it doesn't. It assumes that black people are like everybody else - they react to their society, their surroundings. It seems to me that you and others are trying to make blacks the exception to the rule. We accept that everyone else in society is affected by the images presented to them. Why is it different for black people?

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I'm not saying it is any different for black people. I'm saying the exact opposite, as a matter of fact. It is exactly the same for black people...what happened 150 years ago has very little impact today.

Well then it's a good thing we're talking about observations. :shrug:

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Good, then you can stop assuming you have any idea what black people feel, or that you know why they feel it, because your Mom worked in a predominantly black school.

theplaydrive said:

Okay, well I like understand things beyond "just because".

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You CLAIM to understand things beyond "just because".

But, your flaw is in that you are TRYING to find racism in everything...

Its a part of many "white guilt" mistakes.

theplaydrive said:

That's what I said. I know black people who made such comments just like I know white people who have said they like steak. And you did twist my words. Why on Earth would you consider it relevant to let me know that I don't know you without the premise that I claimed to know you.

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You claimed you "know black people" not some black people. As in, you are in full communion with the thoughts and feelings of black people. At least, that's how it appeared.

You're right. My mistake.

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:shrug:

mac said:

You claimed you "know black people" not some black people. As in, you are in full communion with the thoughts and feelings of black people. At least, that's how it appeared.

:shrug:

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Well, that's not what I meant, particularly as I talked the specific people I knew. :shrug:

Caine said:

But, your flaw is in that you are TRYING to find racism in everything...

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Eh, this just proves that you're one of those guys who thinks that anybody who mentions racism is trying to find racism in anything. If you'd actually read my comments including my criticism of Thunder for trying to attribute everything to racism and self-loathing, you wouldn't have made this comment. The fact is like everybody else, black people are affected by societal attitudes - they aren't the exception to the rule. That's been my point. It's unfortunate that you had to make up an argument, attribute it to me and then argue against it rather than actually addressing what I said. It's completely unnecessary because my actual arguments can be disagreed with all on their own.

theplaydrive said:

Eh, this just proves that you're one of those guys who thinks that anybody who mentions racism is trying to find racism in anything. If you'd actually read my comments including my criticism of Thunder for trying to attribute everything to racism and self-loathing, you wouldn't have made this comment. The fact is like everybody else, black people are affected by societal attitudes - they aren't the exception to the rule. That's been my point. It's unfortunate that you had to make up an argument, attribute it to me and then argue against it rather than actually addressing what I said. It's completely unnecessary because my actual arguments can be disagreed with all on their own.

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So, because some blacks you know blame whitey for their desire to look white, you believe that?

You ever consider those blacks aren't trustworthy.... maybe the type who would talk about getting "white boy drunk"????

Caine said:

So, because some blacks you know blame whitey for their desire to look white, you believe that?

You ever consider those blacks aren't trustworthy.... maybe the type who would talk about getting "white boy drunk"????

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Actually, it was a white guy blaming whitey. And it wasn't TPD. Unless you are saying that blacks can be as racist as whites....I'd watch the trustworthy bit...

Caine said:

So, because some blacks you know blame whitey for their desire to look white, you believe that?

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I don't actually know any black people who "blame whitey for their desire to look white". I do, however, know black people who acknowledge that they are affected by societal attitudes towards race and some who just say things that imply they are affected by such attitudes. These same people, just like the rest of us, are affected by societal attitudes towards Europeans or weight or education and every other thing that society has an opinion on. The current subject, however, is race, so that's why I'm talking about that idea in particular.

I highly doubt that you would be so resistant to accepting the claim that some women are affected by societal attitudes towards skinny/heavy women or that some Americans are affected by societal depictions of Europeans, so I think it's strange that you're so resistant to the idea that some black people are affected by societal attitudes towards white/black people. We're all affected by societal attitudes. I'm really not making a controversial claim here.

mac said:

Actually, it was a white guy blaming whitey. And it wasn't TPD. Unless you are saying that blacks can be as racist as whites....I'd watch the trustworthy bit...

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I AM saying that blacks can be as racist as whites, if the individuals chooses to be that way.

People... blacks... whites.... hispanics.... asians... etc. etc.... are individuals.

Individuals can be as racist as the next individual.

theplaydrive said:

I don't actually know any black people who "blame whitey for their desire to look white". I do, however, know black people who acknowledge that they are affected by societal attitudes towards race and some who just say things that imply they are affected by such attitudes. These same people, just like the rest of us, are affected by societal attitudes towards Europeans or weight or education and every other thing that society has an opinion on. The current subject, however, is race, so that's why I'm talking about that idea in particular.

I highly doubt that you would be so resistant to accepting the claim that some women are affected by societal attitudes towards skinny/heavy women or that some Americans are affected by societal depictions of Europeans, so I think it's strange that you're so resistant to the idea that some black people are affected by societal attitudes towards white/black people. We're all affected by societal attitudes. I'm really not making a controversial claim here.

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But what you are describing in the lower section of your post (last paragraph) has more to do with what society believes is ATTRACTIVE (or what the media outlets inform you IS attractive). I have serious doubts that this changes based upon the race of the individual involved.

I would guess (as you are only doing yourself) that black women that are trying to look more like white women are doing so because the man or men they are interested in find white women attractive.