• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The 99 % or 1%?

Are you in the 1% or 99%

  • 1%

    Votes: 8 17.4%
  • 99%

    Votes: 38 82.6%

  • Total voters
    46
However, altough I share their views on corporatism. I do not agree on the remainder of their views and think such protests are dangerous.

At this point, their views on corporatism is all the movement stands for. Certainly many people amongst them have many conflicting views on all kinds of stuff, but that is what they share.

Fact is, living standards in the US are high, and the ones protesting are not poor. People need to get more sensible expectations.

High standard of living isn't an absolute number, it is relative to the overall economic success of the country. It isn't like there is a set list of things that constitutes a good standard of living and once that is reached, for the rest of history we will have no need to progress. As time goes on and the economy continues to grow, the amount of pie the people doing the work of growing it deserve goes up too.

The US used to enjoy the highest standard of living in the world as recently as the early 90s. We were consistently ranked #1 in the world. Now we've fallen to #13. The median productivity of an American worker is an outstanding $97k/year. It has been steadily rising year after year. But our median income isn't following it. Our median income is presently $44k/year. Less than half what we're worth.

Since the 60s the US's GDP per capita has gone up 400% in today's dollars, but the median income only 40%.

During the entire Bush administration the median income for the top 1% went up a shocking 400%, but the median income for the other 99% actually FELL.

The reality is that the US's workforce is producing more and more value each year, but that growth isn't being shared with the people accomplishing it. As the pie gets bigger instead of everybody's slices getting bigger, the slices of a tiny fraction of people are rapidly expanding while everybody else's stays the same size. And it isn't because they work hard and the rest of the people are lazy or whatever. Far from it. It is the rapidly increasing productivity of the 99% that is powering all that growth. The 99% are working incredibly hard and incredibly smart and they're producing more value for their employers every year. It's because the game has been set up in such a way that the growth is all getting diverted into the pockets of a very small number of people.

THAT is what OWS is about. It's not about unbearable poverty, it is about not getting cut in on the profits we're creating.

It bugs me that I have to specify this every single time, and I don't think you would need this, but for the sake of the right wingers here- that doesn't mean we need redistribution or socialism or whatever, it just means we need to ferret out those policies that are giving the super rich unfair advantages. Get rid of those, and things will go back to the normal state of affairs we've had for most of our country's history where a rising tide really does raise all ships. That's all we're asking for.
 
Last edited:
What are those policies and what did they have that they took away from you?
 
I'm part of the 100%. We're all in this together.

Nice to know you stand with the commies and nazis after all. The reality is... if you spent a week with most any of the 1%, immersed in their life, you would find they very much do not feel the same about you. You, like much of the rest of the 99% are nothing more than disposable tools.

Sorry. I won't participate in this little civil war. If you want to whine about how some people have more money than you, then knock yourself out.

But just a quick question....who are you supporting for President in 2012? A person who won't "deplete natural resources"?

First, I think if someone is going to ask general information about someone else (vocation, who they'll vote for, what their sources are), they should offer up the same info of themselves in the same post.

There was a name for people that said "I won't participate in this "little" civil war" at the outset of the revolution, which, btw, was as much about state favored corporations and the tyranny it produces as it was about representation, freedom and taxes.

Communists are part of this group. Communists are leaders of this group. Communists are speakers of this group.

Are all people in the group communists? Of course not.

But to say that people are just "crying communist" for the sake of creating some sort of fear or something is entirely false. Communists (and Nazis, by the way) are part of this group. And many of the leaders (from the website, those who called for Sep 17 "day of rage", the creators and editors of the newspaper) have some very creepy goals for this country. To deny that is to deny reality.

This absolutely cracks me up!!! Have you "researched" the origins of your own party affiliation, Libertarian? Do you know the number one reason why libertarianism never took off? Because the commies and nazis allied themselves with that movement. They are opportunistic parasites. And there is a much larger percentage of commies and nazis involved in the libertarian movement... so are you willing to accept the same thin label the right wing media is using you to try to stick? Just curious...

I prefer to make it about liberty. OWS is not about liberty.

Define liberty. Not your opinion, the definition. A major component of liberty is SELF DETERMINATION. Our representation has been wholly and completely subverted by monied interests, many operating as a corporate super citizen. By that I mean that the entire resources and wealth of a corporation (and I am speaking of the large "too big to fail", anti competitive, multi-national corps) is leveraged to give the owners and directors of that corporation an additional voice above and apart from the one they already have as an individual. The only way to protect the liberty and legitimate source of political power as the founders intended is to jealously guard Our representation as belonging to We the People, not the corporate super citizen

The whole idea of 99 vs 1 is conflict oriented imo. Redistribution tends to be a common theme and I'm not a fan of that either, because of the government control required to execute.

I never hear libs talking about how they want to redistribute anyones wealth... rather, they are pissed and want the wealth redistribution from the middle class to the 1% to stop.

On the whole, Profits are up 400% over the decade. Directors salaries are up 110%. Wage earners have meanwhile suffered a 4% decline in earnings. The wealth redistribution has already happened... these folks just want it to stop!

Absolutely. There is no other political philosophy that could drive it.

It's not a political philosophy... as much as your media heroes would like to cast it as such. It's about anger, outrage, and action.

The green companies, too? Be honest!

Name one large multi-national corporation that is green...

We are selling our means of production to a communist country and indebted to them to the tune of trillions of dollars. We are pretty much owned by a communist country at this point.

Brilliant! Ahhhh... a clear eye!

Let's see your "research".

She cannot. Asks much of others, but she will dodge this. Two reasons... she hasn't really done any research but is parroting media tools who claim to have done the research... of course it's totally objective. And if she has checked into it, she hasn't looked past sites already "friendly" to her mindset and therefore knows she would be called on it.
 
Five paragraphs of "it ain't fair and they have something I don't" and not damn policy named. Except the obligatory tax increase, probably.
 
I doubt that.....based on the things that you post....the talking points are right out of FoxNews.

All conservative media outlets work off the same scripts. We see them wash through here all the time.
 
I'm still waiting to find out what the "1%" has that they took away from me.

Got a script for that?
 
I'm still waiting to find out what the "1%" has that they took away from me.

Got a script for that?

I've taken a cookie from you.
 
Oh, show us where the Tea Party wants to make boogie men of corporations?

Been hearin a buncha tea party types talkin bout sumpin called crony capitalism on da tv box.
 
Last poll I saw, they had a 54% approval rating nationwide with 23% still undecided. Only 23% disapproving.

Topline Results of Oct. 9-10, 2011, TIME Poll | Swampland | TIME.com

That makes them the most approved of political entity in the country. Higher approval than Romney or Obama or the Democratic Party or the Republican Party or the Tea Party or Congress or Liberals or Conservatives. Some of those they are two, three or even five times more popular than.

I hadn't thought of it like that, in comparison, but you are right!
 
At this point, their views on corporatism is all the movement stands for. Certainly many people amongst them have many conflicting views on all kinds of stuff, but that is what they share.
I feel they are about something else. They are not really that against corporatism. They are people who are mad, because the rich are getting richer while they are not. I realize that a lot of the income inequality that US have experienced the last 30 years, have been unavoidable. At least with traditional politics. Going after the rich won't make them richer, but I don't think the protestors realize this.


The US used to enjoy the highest standard of living in the world as recently as the early 90s. We were consistently ranked #1 in the world. Now we've fallen to #13. The median productivity of an American worker is an outstanding $97k/year. It has been steadily rising year after year. But our median income isn't following it. Our median income is presently $44k/year. Less than half what we're worth.
US were not number 1 in the 1990s. Countries like Brunei, and Luxembourg was in front of the US, but also Switzerland. In fact US is ahead of Switzerland right now and US has certainly performed better than Europe. GDP: GDP per capita, PPP, current international dollars

The median wage you say is too low, do not include a lot of factors. Median income is 44K. Employers pay a 7% payroll tax, 47K. Benefits, 74K Earnings and Benefits - Firms Providing Benefits - Workers, Retirement, Industry, Private, Characteristics, and Average - StateUniversity

Now, we are up to 74K, if we add all remaining factors such as capital gains taxes, business taxes, property taxes, regulations it should be approximately 90K. The remainder is profit.

Why hasn't the wages increased much? Because benefits and hidden taxes has increased.

Income taxes has dropped dramatically the last 30 years, income inequality has increased, the number of people working has dropped, but revenue hasn't. Wierd. That is because they are getting their income from hidden taxes. Increased benefits has also had a dampening effect on median wages. The reason I find this movement scary is because I know that wages in the US are going to go down soon. People are complaining about wages not going up fast enough, what will they say when their wages go down. This is another reason, I don't support hidden taxes, and benefits, because it makes it diffiucult to see a correlation between GDP per capita growth and income.


Since the 60s the US's GDP per capita has gone up 400% in today's dollars, but the median income only 40%.

That is incorrect. GDP per capita has increased by 160% since 1960. Your median income figure is probably correct, but average income with capital gains has only gone up by 65%. The reason neither of them has gone up more, is because benefits, regulation and hidden taxes has increased substantially the last 50 years.

Fact is, US had a GDP increase of 4.9% the last 10 years. With so many factors dragging direct income down, I'm suprised it didn't drop more. People always expect more and more, but fact is. We are producing less and less. The only thing that are not turning these numbers negative are technological growth. I think the biggest problem in the western world is too high expectations combined with lack of knowledge.

http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ave-us-income-saez.jpg
USA, Canada, Western Europe, Asia: 14 Nations Gross Domestic Product (GDP PPP) Per Capita from 1960

During the entire Bush administration the median income for the top 1% went up a shocking 400%, but the median income for the other 99% actually FELL.
Those numbers are definitly incorrect. As you can see here

Historical-Income-Equality-1979-2005-By-Top-1-5-and-10-Pct-Quantiles.jpg

You are really somewhat part of the problem. You like so many Americans have been given false information about what is happening to the American economy. I think the biggest failure is education. Students should learn about this in the school, and be given proper unbiased information. Most people would accept all your figures, because they have no clue about the real numbers.


THAT is what OWS is about. It's not about unbearable poverty, it is about not getting cut in on the profits we're creating.

It bugs me that I have to specify this every single time, and I don't think you would need this, but for the sake of the right wingers here- that doesn't mean we need redistribution or socialism or whatever, it just means we need to ferret out those policies that are giving the super rich unfair advantages. Get rid of those, and things will go back to the normal state of affairs we've had for most of our country's history where a rising tide really does raise all ships. That's all we're asking for.
Now that your basis is debunked, then we can see what Wall Street protest is really about. Wall Street protests are about the misguided idea that Americans could have substantially higher living standards, and they think the 1% rich people are preventing them from having a much higher living standards.

What I want is to get people to understand that their wages can not get substantially higher and income inequality can't become like Scandinavia. In fact American living standards are one of the highest in the world. Enjoy it while you can, because it probably won't last.
 
Last edited:
Socialism is like a virus. You never really eradicate it. It's just there looking for the next host to infect.

This group is bit.

Meh, the establishment said the anti-war protesters during the Vietnam war were Communists and Socialists too. The American public didn't buy it, just like they are not buying it about the OWS protesters.
 
Meh, the establishment said the anti-war protesters during the Vietnam war were Communists and Socialists too. The American public didn't buy it, just like they are not buying it about the OWS protesters.

But there is no argumemt they were communists, as had been stated here earlier.
 
Most likely the healthcare professional is dismayed to watch the eleite upper 1% manipulate markets and pollutocracy greed while the nail salon gal is watching Fox and sinks into a demented perspective voraciously defending the uber elite who funnel massive $ to manipulate the uneducated viewer.

In Virginia, they are called trailer park Republicans:

trailerparkrepublican.jpg
 
Liberals save their real piss and vinegar for lower midle class Americans, the ones they pretend to be pulling for.
 
But there is no argumemt they were communists, as had been stated here earlier.

Big difference between stated, and proven.
 
I'm fairly wealthy (top 5% in South Korea), have seen my share of people getting beat up, people lying around starving and moneyless, and a very memorable incident where a destitute mother offered her child in a subway station, so that a person can take him away and feed him and give him a proper life.

However, I disagree entirely with OWS. I can understand which way they are coming from, but from their lists of demands (which are already too vague and debatable), what I see here is not for the good of the country, but the good of themselves, and they have no concern whatsoever for the consequences of their actions. They protest greed, but what they want in the end, is money for themselves, so they're very hypocritical.

In addition, there's no way they are the 99%. It's a very dishonest attempt at propaganda to make themselves look good.
 
I'm fairly wealthy (top 5% in South Korea), have seen my share of people getting beat up, people lying around starving and moneyless, and a very memorable incident where a destitute mother offered her child in a subway station, so that a person can take him away and feed him and give him a proper life.

However, I disagree entirely with OWS. I can understand which way they are coming from, but from their lists of demands (which are already too vague and debatable), what I see here is not for the good of the country, but the good of themselves, and they have no concern whatsoever for the consequences of their actions. They protest greed, but what they want in the end, is money for themselves, so they're very hypocritical.

In addition, there's no way they are the 99%. It's a very dishonest attempt at propaganda to make themselves look good.

They don't have a list of demands. I'm not sure what you are talking about.
 
In addition, there's no way they are the 99%. It's a very dishonest attempt at propaganda to make themselves look good.

the 99% in the US start at earning around $538,000 a year. Looking at the OWS crowds, I see very few small business owners, and quite a lot of 24-30 year olds that don't want to pay back their student debt.
 
the 99% in the US start at earning around $538,000 a year. Looking at the OWS crowds, I see very few small business owners, and quite a lot of 24-30 year olds that don't want to pay back their student debt.
Look a little closer. I'm part of the 99%, have filed schedule C more times than not, and don't even have a student loan.
 
Looking at the OWS crowds, I see very few small business owners, and quite a lot of 24-30 year olds that don't want to pay back their student debt.

i suspect a lot more would be paying their student loan debt down if there were jobs available that would allow them to do so.

instead, many have to move back home after college. i had to do so after grad school for a few months after i graduated in 1999. i was lucky enough to find a job at a warehouse for a few months until i could land something in my field. it's much more difficult now.; even the warehouse i worked at is closed. a lot of those jobs are gone.

it's really pretty simple. either we hire people, or we support them publicly. i would rather see them hired even if it raises the price of consumer goods.
 
i suspect a lot more would be paying their student loan debt down if there were jobs available that would allow them to do so.

truth. the un and under employment rates for the 22-30 year old demographic is much worse than the national average. that's why i'm not not so sure of those who predict a continuing 2008-style pro-Obama surge into 2012; the excited college students making history in 2008 are the cynical embittered unemployed of 2012.
 
truth. the un and under employment rates for the 22-30 year old demographic is much worse than the national average. that's why i'm not not so sure of those who predict a continuing 2008-style pro-Obama surge into 2012; the excited college students making history in 2008 are the cynical embittered unemployed of 2012.

and to blame a crisis more than three decades in the making on someone who has held office for less than a tenth of that time would not be intellectually honest.

a job search could be a prolonged endeavor even during the middle of the past decade for young people. i navigated that job market, as well.
 
One of our younger kids is extremely independent and would not accept our help with her college expenses. She worked while attending college and got student loans. She graduated nearly three years ago and has still not been able to find a job in her field nor has she been able to find a job that pays a living wage. We are paying her student loans for now while she continues applying because there is no way she could pay them herself.

Before anyone says my baby girl is lazy, isn't really looking for a job, etc. -- this is a kid worked 30 hours a week and was an honor student in college. She is extremely motivated and driven. She has applied for many hundreds of jobs in her field. The jobs just are not out there. As for jobs outside of her field - when employers see her education and GPA, they figure she won't stay in a decent job with their firm. She is left filling low-wage, high-turnover positions to live.

My guess is a lot of the people defaulting on their student loans are in the same boat as our daughter and their parents are not in a financial situation to help them.
 
Back
Top Bottom