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Thread: Thought regarding a tax system

  1. #81
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Allowing the private sector to keep it's hard earned money is never harmful to the economy. Putting that money into the hands of the government does nothing to help the economy.
    Even if that's the case, what I am suggesting is that we cut the overall rates as we eliminate the deductions. So I'm not suggesting a major tax increase, I'm suggesting either a revenue-neutral simplification of the tax code (if we use the current tax rates as a baseline for the simplification), to a modest overall increase (if we use the post-expiration of the Bush tax cuts as a baseline for the simplification). Either way it will save a lot of paperwork in filing taxes, and eliminate most of the most disturbing distortions in the tax code. The mortgage interest deduction and the employer-provided health insurance exclusion are essentially subsidies by another name...only they aren't even subsidizing anything beneficial.

    Didn't say it wasn't doable, but do you really think it's a good idea to encourage people to live on 20 grand a year?
    Not at all. My point is just that if I could live on $20,000 per year, I don't believe for one second that others can't cut back from spending $80,000 per year if they need to. I view $20,000 as what a person actually needs to live on...anything beyond that is extra. Nothing wrong with spending extra...but the more extra someone has, the easier it should be to cut back if necessary.

    Anyway, I don't really advocate a major tax increase on those earning $100K. Maybe a percent or two, at most. The ones who really need to pay more are the ones for whom it would hardly affect their lifestyle at all: the wealthy.

    Do you have kids? Ol' lady? House note? Car note? Been divorced? Call me in 20 years. I'm sure your tune will change.
    All of those things are a result of one's own lifestyle decisions, except arguably the car note...and even that is mostly a lifestyle decision whether you buy a Ferrari or a Cavalier.

    I'm talking the scenario of taxing people on their gross, with no deductions, as you're suggesting should be done.

    Did you take any deductions?
    Even with all my student debt I'm still typically better off with the standard deduction.

    I'd also like to point out that just because I don't support deductions (with a couple exceptions), doesn't mean I want to tax everyone at their marginal tax rate. So if your marginal tax rate is 28% on $100,000, your effective tax rate is less than that, which is OK with me. I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation, and under our current tax code, a single person who earns $100K and takes the standard deduction will actually only end up paying about 19% in federal income taxes.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-19-11 at 11:48 PM.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Voted assuming my two concerns on the previous page were addressed- this scheme replaces all state and federal taxes of all kinds and investment income is treated like any other kind of income. Given that- like and between 4 and 6 for the base.
    Last edited by teamosil; 10-20-11 at 12:05 AM.

  3. #83
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Even if that's the case, what I am suggesting is that we cut the overall rates as we eliminate the deductions. So I'm not suggesting a major tax increase, I'm suggesting either a revenue-neutral simplification of the tax code (if we use the current tax rates as a baseline for the simplification), to a modest overall increase (if we use the post-expiration of the Bush tax cuts as a baseline for the simplification). Either way it will save a lot of paperwork in filing taxes, and eliminate most of the most disturbing distortions in the tax code. The mortgage interest deduction and the employer-provided health insurance exclusion are essentially subsidies by another name...only they aren't even subsidizing anything beneficial.



    Not at all. My point is just that if I could live on $20,000 per year, I don't believe for one second that others can't cut back from spending $80,000 per year if they need to. I view $20,000 as what a person actually needs to live on...anything beyond that is extra. Nothing wrong with spending extra...but the more extra someone has, the easier it should be to cut back if necessary.

    Anyway, I don't really advocate a major tax increase on those earning $100K. Maybe a percent or two, at most. The ones who really need to pay more are the ones for whom it would hardly affect their lifestyle at all: the wealthy.



    All of those things are a result of one's own lifestyle decisions, except arguably the car note...and even that is mostly a lifestyle decision whether you buy a Ferrari or a Cavalier.



    Even with all my student debt I'm still typically better off with the standard deduction.

    I'd also like to point out that just because I don't support deductions (with a couple exceptions), doesn't mean I want to tax everyone at their marginal tax rate. So if your marginal tax rate is 28% on $100,000, your effective tax rate is less than that, which is OK with me. I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation, and under our current tax code, a single person who earns $100K and takes the standard deduction will actually only end up paying about 19% in federal income taxes.
    You might want to re-calulate, because the standard deduction for a single person is only $5,800, which leaves a person making $100,000 in the 28% tax bracket.

    Me? I'm itemizing. I have $4,000 in mileage alone, that I can right off, clothes, per diem, you name it, I'm deducting it.
    Last edited by apdst; 10-20-11 at 12:08 AM.
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I agree, but think those limits should be dictated by the tax code. I mean, a person that makes $100,000 a year and has to pay $28,000 in taxes is plum rediculus.
    Wonderful, then obviously under my plan you'd be pushing for the Tax Baseline to be set at 5 or less, which would make $100,000 a year pay 25% in taxes. 4% would be 20%. 3% at 15%. You're the one arbitrarily coming up with this 28% number.

    I pay for six kids--that I can't claim on my taxes--a house note, buy gas for my truck, put tires on that truck, make repairs on that truck, plus all the other stuff that life requires that we have and you can bet it takes up every bit of 80% of my annual salary.
    You choose to have those kids, and if they're no longer able to be claimed because they're too old but you're still supporting them then you're choosing to do that as well
    You choose to buy the house you bought
    You choose to buy a truck instead of a more gas efficient vehicles
    You choose to apparently buy a truck that necessitates repairs

    Those are your CHOICES. You made them. It shouldn't be incumbent on the government and essentially other tax payers to subsidize your choices. Under my tax code whatever you're getting taxed would be the same as what someone else making the same amount would be taxed, and any alteration on you would alter it on everyone else. You're not special, you shouldn't be treated special.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You might want to re-calulate, because the standard deduction for a single person is only $5,800, which leaves a person making $100,000 in the 28% tax bracket.
    That isn't how it works. If you make $100k, you pay 10% on the first $8500, 15% on the income between $8,500 and $34,500, and so on. You don't pay 28% on the whole thing.

    If you made $100k in 2011, you paid 21.62% or $21,617 in federal income tax if you filed as single (plus you would have to pay FICA on top). There is a calculator here- Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2011

    That is without any deductions.
    Last edited by teamosil; 10-20-11 at 12:12 AM.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Allowing the private sector to keep it's hard earned money is never harmful to the economy. Putting that money into the hands of the government does nothing to help the economy.
    And not giving you a deduction for something special you spent your money on while not giving it to someone else is also taking money out of the economy...its just taking that persons money out instead of yours.

    Where as if there isn't deductions for your special little purchases then the money going back into the economy is the same for you and him.

    Why is your money more important to go back into the economy than someone else who earns the same amount of money but spends it differently? How does yours help the economy more than theirs? Why should theirs subsidize you?

  7. #87
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And not giving you a deduction for something special you spent your money on while not giving it to someone else is also taking money out of the economy...its just taking that persons money out instead of yours.

    Where as if there isn't deductions for your special little purchases then the money going back into the economy is the same for you and him.

    Why is your money more important to go back into the economy than someone else who earns the same amount of money but spends it differently? How does yours help the economy more than theirs? Why should theirs subsidize you?
    What deductions do I get that no one else is entitled to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #88
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, what are you saying, you don't take any deductions when you file your taxes?
    Absolutely not. The same way as I talk about why I have no issue with a Republican governor taking money for his state after its allocated to them, or a Republican senator taking pet projects after the money has been approved, even if they oppose it.

    You play by the system that is in place currently, and the system as it stands currently necessitates deductions due to the way in which it is formatted and due to the other issue of principle that is more important to me... responsibility to my family...I am going to keep as much of my money as possible.

    However, if and when there's an opportunity to overhaul the system in such a way that it removes such a process, reduces the size of government, doesn't prioritize who gets to keep their money based on what special purchases they make, then I'd absolutely go for that even if it may harm me some. I have no problem of going with my principles even if it does me a little harms...I actually do that every single time I vote Republican since I'm a federal employee.

    You on the other hand are so self focused that you chuck out your principles even if you had a chance to enact them because its a little bit more inconvenient to you to allow you to keep the level of life you life and to hell with the benefit it would give to the country.

    Me not taking a deduction wouldn't do jack **** for the good of the country. Simplifying the tax code, reducing the size of government, depoliticizing to a point taxes...that WOULD be good for the country and outweighs a little potential discomfort on my personal level.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    The problem with federal tax systems, in general, is that there are a wide variety of state and local taxes they sit on top of. I do very much like systems that give deductions or credits per children. Maybe you could do a per capita per household or dependent group, to take significan pressure off of parents. While this might not be popular with extreme progressives or libertarians, most of the others don't like seeing the US birth rate fall below replacement, as it is now; I doubt we'll see an end to tax discounts for children anytime soon. Even though there are certainly plenty of politicians pleased with the low birth rates in Russia, Iran, and China...

    I think there is merit to taxing everything at a flat rate, except maybe for poor people and discounts for children, this could essentially be part of some kind of standard deduction x household members or a per capita income in the family, it would essentially be the same at a flat tax rate. That would include business, and all income including capital gains.

    I would like to see a good assessment of who is actually poor in our country, as the normal poverty level calculation seems pretty ambiguous.

  10. #90
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You might want to re-calulate, because the standard deduction for a single person is only $5,800, which leaves a person making $100,000 in the 28% tax bracket.
    Start with a single person earning $100,000 in income.
    Subtract his $3,700 personal exemption, and subtract his $5,800 standard deduction.
    So he's paying income taxes on $90,500 of taxable income.

    On $90,500 of taxable income...
    He pays 10% on his first $8,500 ($850)
    He pays 15% on his next $26,000 ($3,900)
    He pays 25% on his next $49,100 ($12,275)
    He pays 28% on his final $6,900 ($1,932)

    By my calculations, a single person taking the standard deduction would pay $18,957 in federal income taxes on his $100,000 income...or 19%.
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