View Poll Results: Question below

Voters
23. You may not vote on this poll
  • Lean Right and like it

    2 8.70%
  • Lean Right and dislike it

    1 4.35%
  • Lean Left and like it

    9 39.13%
  • Lean Left and dislike it

    5 21.74%
  • Set base between 0.1 and 2

    3 13.04%
  • Set base between 2 and 4

    4 17.39%
  • Set base between 4 and 6

    5 21.74%
  • Set base between 6 and 8

    3 13.04%
  • Set base between 8 and 10

    4 17.39%
  • I like pie

    9 39.13%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 7 of 14 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 134

Thread: Thought regarding a tax system

  1. #61
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I have never understood why capital gains isn't just simple income.
    Because capital gains carries a lot more risks. Capital gains taxes, means less investment because if you do not get losses you will get less returns on your investment.

  2. #62
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,317

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Are you making a profit off the equipment you sell? If you bought a piece of equipment for 10K and sold it for 10K or less, you're not making any profit on it and therefore shouldn't have to pay any tax on it. If you sell it for 12K, then you should only be taxed on the 2K in profit, not on the full 12K.
    I don't think I should have to. I feel like that's a rip off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #63
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,317

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Okay, I don't own a business so I do have some questions....

    On a small business, is the owner of that taxed on all the money the business makes on his personal income tax? Or is it taxed under some corporate or business tax? Or is it taxed only in regards to profit

    I would likely say, with a business, the tax should be on profit, not necessarily total capital.
    Only in regards to profit. Say my business makes $100,000. I have $80,000 in deductions/loss/whatever; giving me a profit of $20,000. If I was taxed on my gross at the rate of 20%--which lower than some folks would like to see--there wouldn't be anything left over to re-invest into my business. I believe that the national average on corporate profit is in the 17% neighborhood.

    It just won't work. It's why I cringe when people start talking about doing away with deductions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #64
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Only in regards to profit. Say my business makes $100,000. I have $80,000 in deductions/loss/whatever; giving me a profit of $20,000. If I was taxed on my gross at the rate of 20%--which lower than some folks would like to see--there wouldn't be anything left over to re-invest into my business. I believe that the national average on corporate profit is in the 17% neighborhood.

    It just won't work. It's why I cringe when people start talking about doing away with deductions.
    That isn't the kind of deduction people are talking about. A sole proprietor's profits are equivalent to a worker's wages, and should be taxed as such. No one is suggesting taxing sole proprietors on their gross revenue; even if they wanted to, that would be logistically impossible because there are no clear accounting standards for how to even calculate gross revenue. (For example, if I sell you a pencil for $1 and you sell it back to me for $1, and we repeat that 1000 times, have we each made $1,000 of gross revenue?)

    The kind of deductions that should be eliminated are most of the PERSONAL deductions/exclusions/credits...mortgage interest, employer-funded health insurance, medical expenses, college tuition, moving expenses, solar panels, eyeglasses, and most of the other random stuff that the government subsidizes through the tax code. It distorts markets, it makes completing taxes overly burdensome, and it's usually not even very effective at achieving the desired results. If it were up to me we would eliminate all deductions/credits with the exception of charitable contributions and the Earned Income Tax Credit. And possibly a child tax credit, although I'm on the fence about that one.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-19-11 at 07:11 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  5. #65
    Guru

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,206

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Here is a tax code I thought of that is similarly structured as OP. Like Kandahar I like zero corporate tax, and I originally taxed capital gains like income but had an economist tell me he thought that it would have a negative effect on growth and the equity markets at the high end of my rates. I am not sure, I lowered them to a flat 20% for now, but I am open to change. I added a federal sales tax and I am open to having that removed if the revenue is high enough to cover total expense of government.

    Scrap the current tax code entirely. Implement a progressive income tax on net income, no deductions, and a federal retail sales tax on goods and services. No corporate tax. No payroll SSI/Medicare/Unemployment taxes. No health care costs for business. No estate tax. No joint filings. No separate social security tax as social security will be part of regular budget and funded through regular taxes.

    Net Income Tax Rates:
    0% on income below $20,000, 10% on any additional income between $20,000-$100,000, 30% on any additional income between $100,000-$1,000,000, and 40% on any additional income above $1,000,000. So someone making 1.2 million would pay in federal taxes ($20,000 X 0)+(80,000x.10)+ (900,000 X .30) + (200,000 X .40)=$358,000.

    Rates end up looking like the following:


    $20,000 income...0%
    30,000................3.3%
    40,000................5%
    50,000................6%
    60,000................6.7%
    70,000................7.1%
    80,000................7.5%
    90,000................7.8%
    100,000...............8%
    200,000...............19%
    500,000...............26%
    1,000,000.............28%
    1,500,000.............32%
    2,000,000.............34%
    1,000,000,000.........39.9%



    20% capital gains tax



    10% federal retail sales tax on goods and services with exemptions on medical, whole foods in grocery stores, and rent. In the roofer example given earlier in the thread where a roofer buys shingles at a store and then puts them on the house, would the homeowner pay sales tax twice on the shingles? No, the roofer would pay sales tax at the store, and then the homeowner would deduct the cost of the shingles and pay sales tax only on the labor. With businesses, the stuff they buy from vendors will have no sales tax, only the retail finished goods the public buys.


    Adopt single payer health insurance covering solely catastrophic along with strict nutritional regulations on the food and beverage industry that transforms the American diet(I know politically impossible likely). The minor stuff in health care will go to a cash system with people paying out of own pocket or relying on charity. The elderly will get an expansion of benefits similar to what they receive now in Medicare.
    Last edited by laska; 10-19-11 at 07:47 PM.

  6. #66
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,317

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That isn't the kind of deduction people are talking about. A sole proprietor's profits are equivalent to a worker's wages, and should be taxed as such. No one is suggesting taxing sole proprietors on their gross revenue; even if they wanted to, that would be logistically impossible because there are no clear accounting standards for how to even calculate gross revenue. (For example, if I sell you a pencil for $1 and you sell it back to me for $1, and we repeat that 1000 times, have we each made $1,000 of gross revenue?)

    The kind of deductions that should be eliminated are most of the PERSONAL deductions/exclusions/credits...mortgage interest, employer-funded health insurance, medical expenses, college tuition, moving expenses, solar panels, eyeglasses, and most of the other random stuff that the government subsidizes through the tax code. It distorts markets, it makes completing taxes overly burdensome, and it's usually not even very effective at achieving the desired results. If it were up to me we would eliminate all deductions/credits with the exception of charitable contributions and the Earned Income Tax Credit. And possibly a child tax credit, although I'm on the fence about that one.
    For that to work, you would have to lower the tax rate dramatically, or you wind up with the same scenario I described above. Individuals are just like corporations i.e you can't take all their proft. Take all of a person's profit and you create a situation, where they're doing nothing but working to pay bills and pay taxes. You will kill the cash flow in the private sector and discourage people from trying to make more money.

    if a person makes $100,000 a year, it costs them $80,000 a year to live and you hit him with a 28% tax and you're going to send them into the hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #67
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    For that to work, you would have to lower the tax rate dramatically, or you wind up with the same scenario I described above. Individuals are just like corporations i.e you can't take all their proft. Take all of a person's profit and you create a situation, where they're doing nothing but working to pay bills and pay taxes. You will kill the cash flow in the private sector and discourage people from trying to make more money.
    I would strongly support lowering overall tax rates, in exchange for eliminating most of the deductions (as long as the overall impact was revenue-neutral or revenue-positive). It would greatly simplify our tax code, make markets more efficient, and mean that most people would waste less time/money on filling out their taxes.

    if a person makes $100,000 a year, it costs them $80,000 a year to live and you hit him with a 28% tax and you're going to send them into the hole.
    I don't believe that it actually costs anyone $80,000 to live, except through their own life decisions. In my early 20s I lived just fine on $20,000. A bit of a spartan lifestyle, but you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone is earning $100,000 and they owe 28% in taxes, it sounds to me like that person needs to reduce their expenses to $72,000 or less.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-19-11 at 08:39 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  8. #68
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,317

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I would strongly support lowering overall tax rates, in exchange for eliminating most of the deductions (as long as the overall impact was revenue-neutral or revenue-positive). It would greatly simplify our tax code, make markets more efficient, and mean that most people would waste less time/money on filling out their taxes.
    Therein lies the problem: alot of folks don't understand the difference between deductions and loopholes, nor how the system fundamentally operates. Sometimes I believe that the Left leaning folks on this forum that harp about raising taxes, abolishing all deductions and claim they make six-figures in annual income are talking out of their asses.



    I don't believe that it actually costs anyone $80,000 to live, except through their own life decisions. In my early 20s I lived just fine on $20,000. A bit of a spartan lifestyle, but you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone is earning $100,000 and they owe 28% in taxes, it sounds to me like that person needs to reduce their expenses to $72,000 or less.
    Probably more than just, "a bit". Alot more.

    My point is, basically, anyone that would suggest a tax code that would force people to lower their standard of living, just so they could be able to afford to pay their taxes, will never get the chance to implement that plan, because he will never make it to elected office to get the chance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #69
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Therein lies the problem: alot of folks don't understand the difference between deductions and loopholes, nor how the system fundamentally operates. Sometimes I believe that the Left leaning folks on this forum that harp about raising taxes, abolishing all deductions and claim they make six-figures in annual income are talking out of their asses.
    Most loopholes are deductions (or credits or exclusions or something similar)...and most deductions can be loopholes if used cleverly. I forget who it was, but I read a columnist who describes the tax code like this: You do the minor housekeeping stuff every year, and regularly make modifications to it. But every 20 years or so, you need to completely overhaul it and essentially start from scratch, simply because a lot of pointless stuff finds its way into the tax code over time. It's now been 25 years since the last time the tax code was overhauled...I think it's overdue. We need to eliminate all or most of the deductions in exchange for lower overall rates. The average person shouldn't need to spend more than about 30 minutes doing their taxes.

    Probably more than just, "a bit". Alot more.
    Meh, I lived comfortably (although not luxuriously) on $20,000 back in the day. It was enough for me to have a cheap apartment in a safe neighborhood in a low-cost part of Ohio, three square meals a day, an old car, internet and two computers, health insurance through my employer, and the occasional cheap night out with friends. Granted, I wouldn't want to live that lifestyle forever (which is part of why I made the decision to go to b-school), but straight out of college I didn't really mind. Living on $20,000 is definitely possible. I can't imagine why it would "cost someone $80,000 to live" unless they had made some very extravagant lifestyle decisions of their own volition.

    My point is, basically, anyone that would suggest a tax code that would force people to lower their standard of living, just so they could be able to afford to pay their taxes, will never get the chance to implement that plan, because he will never make it to elected office to get the chance.
    I don't think that a modest tax increase would force upper-middle class to lower their standard of living very much. For example, the 28% on $100K isn't too far off from what I currently pay on my income, and I've never had a problem coming up with the money. But ultimately I think this is a moot point...the people who need to be paying more are the people who wouldn't be forced to lower their standard of living much at all, i.e. the very wealthy.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  10. #70
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by laska View Post
    Here is a tax code I thought of that is similarly structured as OP. Like Kandahar I like zero corporate tax, and I originally taxed capital gains like income but had an economist tell me he thought that it would have a negative effect on growth and the equity markets at the high end of my rates. I am not sure, I lowered them to a flat 20% for now, but I am open to change. I added a federal sales tax and I am open to having that removed if the revenue is high enough to cover total expense of government.

    Scrap the current tax code entirely. Implement a progressive income tax on net income, no deductions, and a federal retail sales tax on goods and services. No corporate tax. No payroll SSI/Medicare/Unemployment taxes. No health care costs for business. No estate tax. No joint filings. No separate social security tax as social security will be part of regular budget and funded through regular taxes.

    Net Income Tax Rates:
    0% on income below $20,000, 10% on any additional income between $20,000-$100,000, 30% on any additional income between $100,000-$1,000,000, and 40% on any additional income above $1,000,000. So someone making 1.2 million would pay in federal taxes ($20,000 X 0)+(80,000x.10)+ (900,000 X .30) + (200,000 X .40)=$358,000.

    Rates end up looking like the following:


    $20,000 income...0%
    30,000................3.3%
    40,000................5%
    50,000................6%
    60,000................6.7%
    70,000................7.1%
    80,000................7.5%
    90,000................7.8%
    100,000...............8%
    200,000...............19%
    500,000...............26%
    1,000,000.............28%
    1,500,000.............32%
    2,000,000.............34%
    1,000,000,000.........39.9%



    20% capital gains tax



    10% federal retail sales tax on goods and services with exemptions on medical, whole foods in grocery stores, and rent. In the roofer example given earlier in the thread where a roofer buys shingles at a store and then puts them on the house, would the homeowner pay sales tax twice on the shingles? No, the roofer would pay sales tax at the store, and then the homeowner would deduct the cost of the shingles and pay sales tax only on the labor. With businesses, the stuff they buy from vendors will have no sales tax, only the retail finished goods the public buys.


    Adopt single payer health insurance covering solely catastrophic along with strict nutritional regulations on the food and beverage industry that transforms the American diet(I know politically impossible likely). The minor stuff in health care will go to a cash system with people paying out of own pocket or relying on charity. The elderly will get an expansion of benefits similar to what they receive now in Medicare.
    Although, I like any plan that tries to improve the system, I see some potential problems with your plan.

    1. No corporate taxes? Corporate taxes give companies incentives to keep their profits low, and not cheat the workers. I would rather have a tax deduction for investment. Also, no corporate tax will give companies the opportunity to freeload on the American system and piss off the rest of the world.

    2. I don't think it will bring in enough revenue. The income taxes are about the same as today effective tax rates. (the high income are not, but it doesn't matter) So it will bring in about 1 billion USD. Your sales tax will bring in about 600 billion USD, and the capital gains taxes will bring in about 100 billion. That won't be enough.
    Last edited by Camlon; 10-19-11 at 10:01 PM.

Page 7 of 14 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •