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Thread: Thought regarding a tax system

  1. #121
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I'm afraid that is still wildly off the mark. That would be $160 billion a year. Our actual revenues from oil and gas leases and royalties are just under $10 billion a year. So, a fraction of what the Bush tax cuts cost us.

    Oil and Natural Gas Development on Public Lands are an Important Revenue Source for Government
    www.gao.gov/new.items/d07676r.pdf

    But, it gets much worse. We spend $41 billion a year on oil and gas subsidies.

    Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com

    That's right, we give $41 billion in taxpayer money to oil companies just for being oil companies. Of the top 10 most profitable companies in the world, 5 are oil and gas companies and all five receive subsidies from us. President Obama proposed that we scale back the subsidies from $41 billion to $37 billion a year, but the Republicans managed to defend them.

    So, overall, we are losing $31 billion a year to the oil industry.
    Um, no, ending the Bush tax cuts would create $7 billion a year. The oil and gas industry in 2008 created $16 billion a year...that's twice as much+. I posted the link in a previous thread. Go check it out.

    It just goes to show that raising taxes isn't about generating revenue.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #122
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I'm afraid that is still wildly off the mark. That would be $160 billion a year. Our actual revenues from oil and gas leases and royalties are just under $10 billion a year. So, a fraction of what the Bush tax cuts cost us.

    Oil and Natural Gas Development on Public Lands are an Important Revenue Source for Government
    www.gao.gov/new.items/d07676r.pdf

    But, it gets much worse. We spend $41 billion a year on oil and gas subsidies.

    Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com

    That's right, we give $41 billion in taxpayer money to oil companies just for being oil companies. Of the top 10 most profitable companies in the world, 5 are oil and gas companies and all five receive subsidies from us. President Obama proposed that we scale back the subsidies from $41 billion to $37 billion a year, but the Republicans managed to defend them.

    So, overall, we are losing $31 billion a year to the oil industry.
    Um, no, ending the Bush tax cuts would create $7 billion a year. The oil and gas industry in 2008 created $16 billion a year...that's twice as much+. I posted the link in a previous thread. Go check it out.

    It just goes to show that raising taxes isn't about generating revenue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #123
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Um, no, ending the Bush tax cuts would create $7 billion a year. The oil and gas industry in 2008 created $16 billion a year...that's twice as much+. I posted the link in a previous thread. Go check it out.

    It just goes to show that raising taxes isn't about generating revenue.
    $7 billion a year? Dude, you need to slow down and check your facts more carefully. You said it was $700 billion over 10 years. That's $70 billion a year. That was your figure. The actual figure is $2.6 trillion. That's how much the Bush tax cuts would cost us over the next 10 years if we extended them all. $260 billion a year. The $700 billion over 10 years figure is what we would save if we continue most of the Bush cuts, but repeal those for the super rich only.

    And, again, we give $41 billion a year in subsidies to the oil and gas industry. Way, way, more than we make in leases and royalties even if I take your $16 billion figure over the $10 billion one I provided from the GAO...
    Last edited by teamosil; 10-21-11 at 01:48 AM.

  4. #124
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    $7 billion a year? Dude, you need to slow down and check your facts more carefully. You said it was $700 billion over 10 years. That's $70 billion a year. That was your figure. The actual figure is $2.6 trillion. That's how much the Bush tax cuts would cost us over the next 10 years if we extended them all. $260 billion a year. The $700 billion over 10 years figure is what we would save if we continue most of the Bush cuts, but repeal those for the super rich only.

    And, again, we give $41 billion a year in subsidies to the oil and gas industry. Way, way, more than we make in leases and royalties even if I take your $16 billion figure over the $10 billion one I provided from the GAO...
    My sources say 4.0 trillion USD. 3.3 trillion in increased revenue, and 0.7 trillion in reduced deficit. Problem is, none of he parties are interested in ending the bush tax cuts. Democrats just want to increase the tax for the rich, ehich will raise little revenue and have a negative impact on the US future prospects.

    Congressional Budget Office - CBO's 2011 Long-Term Budget Outlook

  5. #125
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    OK about the dozenth time I've revised my tax plan. It is weird, I don't think I have ever even done my own taxes and I am waking up at 5am doing this. Zephlin I think you'll like these two little carrots. Decided against sales tax on services. Too much temptation for people to cheat. On capital gains decided to go 0% on ipo's and anytime a company releases shares to raise capital. All other times it will be 20%. Interesting comparison to 999 plan. Mine is more pro growth, and progressive. About the top 7% of the population make over $100,000 a year, almost half the national income, and under my plan they have a higher burden for government revenue compared to the 999 plan where the 93% who make less than $100,000 and have the other half of the national income are given the greater burden for revenue. Both plans are designed to greatly simplify tax code and be extreme pro growth and job creation.

    Scrap current tax code. New net income tax: No deductions, no corporate tax, no payroll taxes, no SSI tax, no estate tax, no joint filings.
    0% on income below $20,000, 10% on any additional income between $20,000-$100,000, 30% on any additional income between $100,000-$1,000,000, and 40% on any additional income above $1,000,000. So someone making 1.2 million would pay in federal taxes ($20,000 X 0)+(80,000x.10)+ (900,000 X .30) + (200,000 X .40)=$358,000.
    What the rates will look like on net income:
    $20,000 income...0%
    30,000................3.3%
    40,000................5%
    50,000................6%
    60,000................6.7%
    70,000................7.1%
    80,000................7.5%
    90,000................7.8%
    100,000...............8%
    200,000...............19%
    500,000...............26%
    1,000,000.............28%
    1,500,000.............32%
    2,000,000.............34%
    1,000,000,000.........39.9%

    Capital gains rate of 0% on ipo's and whenever a company issues more shares on the equity market to raise capital. All other times the capital gains rate will be 20%.

    10% federal retail sales tax on goods with exemptions on medical, whole foods in grocery stores, and rent.
    Last edited by laska; 10-21-11 at 07:50 AM.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by laska View Post
    1,000,000,000.........39.9%

    ...

    Capital gains rate of 0% on ipo's and whenever a company issues more shares on the equity market to raise capital. All other times the capital gains rate will be 20%.
    Why tax somebody who makes $1m/year in income twice as much if they make it by working? Why penalize working like that? I would think that if anything money you actually worked for should be taxed at a lower rate than money you're just skimming off the top of other people's work. At the very least, I think they should be taxed the same.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    The 39.9% rate is for a billion not a million. I agree that capital gains should be taxed at higher rates than personal income from a theoretical point of view but the problem is that there is risk involved in investing and if you put the rates too high, you could have the unintentended consequence of making it much tougher for job creaters to find capital. At 20% the rates are higher than about 98% of personal income tax rates under my plan. I did raise the capital gains rates on trades between shareholders and shareholders and other things that do not directly raise capital for companies.

  8. #128
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by laska View Post
    OK about the dozenth time I've revised my tax plan. It is weird, I don't think I have ever even done my own taxes and I am waking up at 5am doing this. Zephlin I think you'll like these two little carrots. Decided against sales tax on services. Too much temptation for people to cheat. On capital gains decided to go 0% on ipo's and anytime a company releases shares to raise capital. All other times it will be 20%. Interesting comparison to 999 plan. Mine is more pro growth, and progressive. About the top 7% of the population make over $100,000 a year, almost half the national income, and under my plan they have a higher burden for government revenue compared to the 999 plan where the 93% who make less than $100,000 and have the other half of the national income are given the greater burden for revenue. Both plans are designed to greatly simplify tax code and be extreme pro growth and job creation.

    Scrap current tax code. New net income tax: No deductions, no corporate tax, no payroll taxes, no SSI tax, no estate tax, no joint filings.
    0% on income below $20,000, 10% on any additional income between $20,000-$100,000, 30% on any additional income between $100,000-$1,000,000, and 40% on any additional income above $1,000,000. So someone making 1.2 million would pay in federal taxes ($20,000 X 0)+(80,000x.10)+ (900,000 X .30) + (200,000 X .40)=$358,000.
    What the rates will look like on net income:
    $20,000 income...0%
    30,000................3.3%
    40,000................5%
    50,000................6%
    60,000................6.7%
    70,000................7.1%
    80,000................7.5%
    90,000................7.8%
    100,000...............8%
    200,000...............19%
    500,000...............26%
    1,000,000.............28%
    1,500,000.............32%
    2,000,000.............34%
    1,000,000,000.........39.9%

    Capital gains rate of 0% on ipo's and whenever a company issues more shares on the equity market to raise capital. All other times the capital gains rate will be 20%.

    10% federal retail sales tax on goods with exemptions on medical, whole foods in grocery stores, and rent.
    The biggest problem I see with this plan is that it simply won't generate nearly enough revenue. If the only taxes you'd have are a no-deductions income tax, and a flat sales tax, your top rate would have to be a lot higher than 40% to make it work.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-21-11 at 06:40 PM.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by laska View Post
    The 39.9% rate is for a billion not a million. I agree that capital gains should be taxed at higher rates than personal income from a theoretical point of view but the problem is that there is risk involved in investing and if you put the rates too high, you could have the unintentended consequence of making it much tougher for job creaters to find capital. At 20% the rates are higher than about 98% of personal income tax rates under my plan. I did raise the capital gains rates on trades between shareholders and shareholders and other things that do not directly raise capital for companies.
    Well, the risk factor is overblown IMO. With just some pretty simple planning you can carry over losses to future years. They let you carry them over one year outright, but you can carry them over as long as you want by just choosing not to sell off the stock you took the losses on until you have gains to offset. So, for example, if I lose $5m this year and make $3m next year and $3m the year after that, in reality I would only pay taxes on $1m. So, short of a scenario where I go totally bankrupt or the market permanently collapses or something, that isn't really a big factor in practice.

    But, you're right that a higher capital gains tax means less investment capital. But a higher tax on wages means less consumer spending, so less actual revenues for the companies too. In the end a boom driven on investment capital that isn't backed up with actual revenues, is doomed to burst, where a boom built on actual revenues sticks. That's basically the Reaganomics argument you're making, but in my opinion it's a trick. It's only looking at half the equation. It's like saying "it is important that I have peanut butter on my pb&j sandwich, so I am going to spend all my money on peanut butter" without considering that you need jelly too. It isn't that it is wrong so much. You do need peanut butter/investment capital, but there are trade offs. You need to collect taxes from somewhere, and the other places are just as bad (or worse IMO). So it isn't an argument for why capital gains should be lower then income taxes, it's just an argument for why if we didn't need to collect taxes, it would be good to lower the capital gains rate.

  10. #130
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    I still don't understand why some want to punish others for making money. Seems like you'd want to punish people for not being productive. Produce or else! (only slightly sarcastic here)

    If someone's already producing very well, you might say "Good job! Here's a reward aka some money back!"

    When someone demonstrates that they are good with money and produce rewards for those around them, they should be given more money to work with so more money is made so more tax is collected. When someone demonstrates that they are bad with money and essentially a drain on society, they shouldn't be given any money - they should be encouraged to produce.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

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