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Thread: Thought regarding a tax system

  1. #111
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    You can understand why oil/energy subsidies might be a good idea though - because fuel prices affect almost every aspect of our society. Not only does it directly affect us at the pump, but industrial shipping stays cheap with inexpensive, readily available fuel. Infinite travel methods follow suit as well.

    The real problem exists due to the fact that oil has an inelastic demand, which means - to an extent - they can charge whatever they want.
    Companies that make money are evil, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #112
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Which is somewhat irrelevant to my suggestion. What does the current tax rate have to do with this specific thread. If you don't like the premise of the thread that doesn't mean you should just come in, ignore it, and talk about taxes in general.



    I've suggested very specific numbers. Or more to the point, numbers representing a very specific formula.

    Lets say we went right down the middle with a 5% baseline. That'd put the people making what you mentioned above at 20% rather than 28%.

    And there's nothing guaranteeing under the system that it'd be at 5%. For example, that'd get the "wealthy" up where some liberals would like, but that'd also be hitting the poor with a 5% tax and the lower middle class at 10% which may or may not affect what the democrats would push. That's part of the discussion here...what number would YOU push for to plug into the baseline to make it what you'd like to see



    Nope. I'm saying it seems that based on the principles you've seemed to imply at other times are best for this country...such as small government...that it appears you're against something that would go towards doing that very thing because it'd be harmful to you personally. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling you someone who is rationalizing to himself his reasons for going against his principles as spoken about when not directly effecting him and why its okay for you to do so.

    And I work for the Federal Air Marshals.



    Hmm, in that case perhaps I'm mistaken in my memory.



    Sure it would. It'd have an impact if your tax bill quadrupedal to. And it'd have a major impact if the tax bill suddenly turned into dog **** while you held it.

    What does that have to do with this thread? This thread isn't talking about removing deductions from the current tax code, so why is it that is what you keep focusing on instead of what the topic actually is?
    Oh, ok! Now we know why you're so set on people doing their duty to the country. I have to say I'm not a damn bit surprised that you're a g-man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #113
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Interesting but dislike it for a number of reasons...

    1. There's people who have absolutely no stake in income taxes, giving them little disincentive to try and continue to raise taxes on others and increase the free stuff they can get from the government.
    It is much better than current code in that regard if it is accurate that only 50% of the people pay federal taxes. In my plan only those who make under $20,000 pay no income taxes, but they will be paying some sales tax to go along with local and state taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    2. There's nothing keeping someone from attempting to just manipulate a single portion of the tax code to help/hurt one particular group of people. A rich person is no less important or more worthy of targeting by the government than a poor person and vise versa. I think a linked code where you either affect everyone or no one would be better
    Current tax code has the same problem. I would really have no problem in making my code a linked code with the given ratios I have in it. Another solution would make it hard to change the code, make a 2/3 or 3/4 vote necessary. You can also pretty much eliminate the power of special interests on politicians by doing term limits of one term.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    3. It adds a 10% tax on top of an income tax that is already increased for some of those brackets
    But I also eliminate the current gas tax and corporate tax, both of which gets transferred to the price of goods and services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    4. It implements single payer health care as a part of a tax measure. Ridiculous in that regard and something I'd be against even on its own.
    I only mention it with the tax code because business will no longer provide employee health care, an enormous savings for business and part of the pro growth structure of the code.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    5. It implements significant government regulation into our personal lives, going way above the current level of telling us what we can and can not eat.
    The processed food and beverage industry basically engineer many of their products to keep people hungry by stripping the nutrition out of it, and loading it with sugar to get people addicted with instant sugar highs. All about profit. They know if they addict kids they will have them on their products for life. I am familiar a little bit with the Polynesian peoples. The islands that have gone on the western diet have high rates of diabetes, cancer, obesity, etc like the U.S. The ones on the traditional diet have the best athletes and those diseases are unheard of. The purpose of government is to protect freedom, so a wise government would not allow these companies to addict kids and everyone else with harmful products. I realize its civil war if we take away the big mac, but it solves long term the rationing problem in a single payer catastrophic plan. So I mention it knowing hell will freeze over before it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Essentially your plan offers little for a conservative to like (the fact it lowers taxes for some people is a plus, the fact it simplifies the code by bringing less brackets is a plus) while giving a TON of things that would absolutely make it a non-start (Single payer health care, massive taxes on anything but whole foods, over the top government regulation of food, significant increased taxes on some pay levels, no taxes on some people).

    Its a fine liberal plan...but its just that, a liberal plan, not a compromise one in the least.
    It's pretty centrist. What liberal plans out there eliminate the corporate tax, the estate tax, is thinking of growth when they eliminate the payroll and health care costs on business. Those are huge carrots to the Right. I realize the single payer is a deal breaker to most on the Right, but even that is centrist as I am promoting a hybrid solely catastrophic/Cash for everything else system.

  4. #114
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Letting the Bush tax cuts expire would create $709 billion over the next 10 years. The oil and gas industry creates 20 times that amount in the same 10 years in royalties and leases alone.
    You're contending that the oil and gas industry pays $14 trillion to the US government every 10 years in royalties and leases alone? So, $1.4 trillion a year. Seriously, that is your contention. You think the oil and gas royalties and leases account for 54% of federal government revenues. That is the position you want to take with me?

    Ok then, lets see a source saying that. In fact, lets just see a source saying that you aren't off by orders of magnitude.

  5. #115
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Okay, I don't own a business so I do have some questions....

    On a small business, is the owner of that taxed on all the money the business makes on his personal income tax? Or is it taxed under some corporate or business tax? Or is it taxed only in regards to profit
    Depends how they organized. For instance, if they have a sole proprietorship, all of the expenses and income get reported on schedule E or C of the individual tax returns and are taxed at individual rates with certain items qualifying for specific tax rates if they are sales, depreciation recapture, etc. If it's a partnership, then generally they get guaranteed payments which are basically earned income along with distributions. In theory, a partnership could never distribute anything, but it's unlikely. Since the partnership under a flat tax has no deductions it can legally net with its income, the gross amount would either pile up or be distributed.

    I would likely say, with a business, the tax should be on profit, not necessarily total capital.
    Well, that's not really a gross tax then. But it's no longer simple.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  6. #116
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by laska View Post
    But I also eliminate the current gas tax and corporate tax, both of which gets transferred to the price of goods and services.
    This an assumption. In a highly competitive volume market, you can't actually pass on the cost to consumers without collusion. As long as one firm refuses to go along and can meet a sizable amount of demand, its competitors will not raise prices as they'll lose market share.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Oh, ok! Now we know why you're so set on people doing their duty to the country. I have to say I'm not a damn bit surprised that you're a g-man.
    You shouldn't be. I've been rather open about that fact on these forums for the past 4 years. And I'm not set on doing my "duty to the country". I'm set on believing politicians and our laws should do what's best FOR the country and the people that live in it.

  8. #118
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You're contending that the oil and gas industry pays $14 trillion to the US government every 10 years in royalties and leases alone? So, $1.4 trillion a year. Seriously, that is your contention. You think the oil and gas royalties and leases account for 54% of federal government revenues. That is the position you want to take with me?

    Ok then, lets see a source saying that. In fact, lets just see a source saying that you aren't off by orders of magnitude.
    My fingers were working independent of my brain, which is why I'm so great in the sack. I meant to say, "2 times".

    Now that that has been corrected, the Bush tax cuts will yield $703 billion and the oil and gas leases+royalties will yield $1.6 trillion, in 10 years.

    My point still, obviously, stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #119
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You shouldn't be. I've been rather open about that fact on these forums for the past 4 years. And I'm not set on doing my "duty to the country". I'm set on believing politicians and our laws should do what's best FOR the country and the people that live in it.
    Especially for those who depend on tax revenue for a steady paycheck. Yes?

    Got it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #120
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    My fingers were working independent of my brain, which is why I'm so great in the sack. I meant to say, "2 times".

    Now that that has been corrected, the Bush tax cuts will yield $703 billion and the oil and gas leases+royalties will yield $1.6 trillion, in 10 years.

    My point still, obviously, stands.
    I'm afraid that is still wildly off the mark. That would be $160 billion a year. Our actual revenues from oil and gas leases and royalties are just under $10 billion a year. So, a fraction of what the Bush tax cuts cost us.

    Oil and Natural Gas Development on Public Lands are an Important Revenue Source for Government
    www.gao.gov/new.items/d07676r.pdf

    But, it gets much worse. We spend $41 billion a year on oil and gas subsidies.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...billion-a-year

    That's right, we give $41 billion in taxpayer money to oil companies just for being oil companies. Of the top 10 most profitable companies in the world, 5 are oil and gas companies and all five receive subsidies from us. President Obama proposed that we scale back the subsidies from $41 billion to $37 billion a year, but the Republicans managed to defend them.

    So, overall, we are losing $31 billion a year to the oil industry.
    Last edited by teamosil; 10-20-11 at 11:27 PM.

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