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Thread: Thought regarding a tax system

  1. #91
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What deductions do I get that no one else is entitled to?
    If you spend your money on education you're entitled to get money back. If I spend that same money on a vacation I'm not.

    The only reason you're "entitled" to that is because the GOVERNMENT deems it so. Its not a "right", its a government handout.

    You talk about "free" to spend your money. Seems in reality you want people to be free to spend their money, but you want them to get a bonus from the government for spending that money how the government wants.

    Why should you get a bonus for spending money in a different fashion than I? What makes your spending better? What makes your spending more worthy of being tax free?

    And frankly, again, how about we get back on topic. For example, if your issue is that no deductions plus a 28% tax on those making $100,000 is bad then that's not so much an issue with the tax suggestion as it is with what someone may try to make the baseline.

    The baseline begins at 1 and would need legislation passed to set it. Thus the vote at the top to see what baseline people would perhaps think is right.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    If you spend your money on education you're entitled to get money back. If I spend that same money on a vacation I'm not.

    The only reason you're "entitled" to that is because the GOVERNMENT deems it so. Its not a "right", its a government handout.

    You talk about "free" to spend your money. Seems in reality you want people to be free to spend their money, but you want them to get a bonus from the government for spending that money how the government wants.

    But, we're both able to write off our mileage to and from work, at 51 cents a mile, though. We're both able to.

    Why should you get a bonus for spending money in a different fashion than I? What makes your spending better? What makes your spending more worthy of being tax free?

    It's more important to me and that's why I play by the very rules that the government created.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But, we're both able to write off our mileage to and from work, at 51 cents a mile, though. We're both able to.
    One thing that is likely similar between two people does not equal it being the same across the board. As my specific example specified. If you spent 10% of your income on education and I spent 10% of mine on vacation, you'd get a government handout for how you spent the money but I'd have to give the government a handout.

    It's more important to me and that's why I play by the very rules that the government created.
    I have no issue with you playing by the very rules the government created.

    I've got an issue however with a "Conservative" who cares more about their own excesses and lifestyle and a little discomfort when given an option of lowering the size of government, simplifying the tax code, reducing dependence on government bureaucracy, and stopping a systematic method of backhanded government redistribution of wealth by putting an incentive on certain purchases the government wants people to make. And that's not even taking it a step farther, that because of it possibly having a slight impact on your life choices and some discomfort you're against something that, on top of everything I already said, would assure EVERYONE is taxed rather than just some, removes the ability for Democrats to just target "The rich", and could potentially lower taxes for the vast majority of Americans if not all Americans.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But, we're both able to write off our mileage to and from work, at 51 cents a mile, though. We're both able to.
    But the question is why. What is it about spending $1 driving two miles to work, as opposed to spending $1 on a bottle of Coke, that makes it worthy of a tax writeoff? Why should the government even care?
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    One thing that is likely similar between two people does not equal it being the same across the board. As my specific example specified. If you spent 10% of your income on education and I spent 10% of mine on vacation, you'd get a government handout for how you spent the money but I'd have to give the government a handout.
    Exactly, and that's hy hammering the crap out of people with taxes is a bad idea. Just because it works for you, doesn't mean it works for me.




    I have no issue with you playing by the very rules the government created.
    Sounds like you do.
    I've got an issue however with a "Conservative" who cares more about their own excesses and lifestyle and a little discomfort when given an option of lowering the size of government, simplifying the tax code, reducing dependence on government bureaucracy, and stopping a systematic method of backhanded government redistribution of wealth by putting an incentive on certain purchases the government wants people to make. And that's not even taking it a step farther, that because of it possibly having a slight impact on your life choices and some discomfort you're against something that, on top of everything I already said, would assure EVERYONE is taxed rather than just some, removes the ability for Democrats to just target "The rich", and could potentially lower taxes for the vast majority of Americans if not all Americans.
    Dude! Don't judge me!
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Exactly, and that's hy hammering the crap out of people with taxes is a bad idea. Just because it works for you, doesn't mean it works for me.
    Whose suggesting to hammer the crap out of people with taxes? Seriously, you've just thrown out a random number at 28% and decided to act like that was somehow my suggestion.

    Sounds like you do.
    Seems you're hearing wrong. However, I don't believe you're just playing within the rules the government created. I think you like, prefer, and would desperately hold onto the rules the government created out of self interest...country and principles be damned. That's significantly different than just "playing by the rules", that's embracing and supporting them.

    Dude! Don't judge me!
    I'll be honest, I'm having a little fun with the whole conservative thing since so often people enjoy having a go at me for not being "conservative" because its not lock step in the method they want. However there is a point to it, specifically pointing out that sometimes we put certain personal thoughts or views ahead of conservative principle sometimes and that in and of itself doesn't necessarily negate one from being "conservative" as I'd hardly call you anything else but that.

    I get it, you're looking out for your own. You're comfortable and you don't want anyone rocking that boat. However, I don't think the results of my suggestion would have an outcome such as you're suggesting, I think your suggestion is an over reaction, and I think the total benefit it'd have for the nation would be significantly more than any damage.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    I have found that some conservatives instinctively shy away from criticizing subsidies if they happen to be located in the tax code. This is unfortunate, because this is where some of the least efficient subsidies occur, and should be a prime place for fiscal hawks to look for wasteful spending to cut. For example, if Obama proposed a new social program wherein the government would give people a few cents for every mile that they commuted to work, conservatives would be screaming bloody murder...and rightly so. They'd complain about social engineering, and how the government couldn't afford this, and how it isn't the government's place to get people to behave in certain ways...all valid criticisms. And yet, if you include exactly the same subsidy into the tax code instead of a social program, suddenly it's not only OK but it's essential.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-20-11 at 12:40 AM.
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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have found that some conservatives instinctively shy away from criticizing subsidies if they happen to be located in the tax code. This is unfortunate, because this is where some of the least efficient subsidies occur, and should be a prime place for fiscal hawks to look for wasteful spending to cut. For example, if Obama proposed a new social program wherein the government would give people a few cents for every mile that they commuted to work, conservatives would be screaming bloody murder...and rightly so. They'd complain about social engineering, and how the government couldn't afford this, and how it isn't the government's place to get people to behave in certain ways...all valid criticisms. And yet, if you include exactly the same subsidy into the tax code instead of a social program, suddenly it's not only OK but it's essential.
    Bingo. You nailed it. Great post. That's exactly right. It's this weird blind spot in their reasoning big enough to drive a trillion dollars through...

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have found that some conservatives instinctively shy away from criticizing subsidies if they happen to be located in the tax code. This is unfortunate, because this is where some of the least efficient subsidies occur, and should be a prime place for fiscal hawks to look for wasteful spending to cut. For example, if Obama proposed a new social program wherein the government would give people a few cents for every mile that they commuted to work, conservatives would be screaming bloody murder...and rightly so. They'd complain about social engineering, and how the government couldn't afford this, and how it isn't the government's place to get people to behave in certain ways...all valid criticisms. And yet, if you include exactly the same subsidy into the tax code instead of a social program, suddenly it's not only OK but it's essential.
    Technically, they're opposed to increasing revenue, because they want the federal government to be much smaller. They might prefer to replace with tax credit with a general tax reduction, for instance.

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    Re: Thought regarding a tax system

    Part of it is the perception.

    In one case the government is giving money, in the other case the government is just taking less money.

    The issue of course is that in the latter case its never a situation where somehow that less money they're taking from you means the government is taking less money in general. In reality, typically other taxes are raised higher to compensate for the lower rate some are getting for "X" reason. Thus the wealth is backhandedly being redistributed but it takes a more macro view of the situation to understand that. The other thing is that what its doing is the government exerting some control over people by giving an incentive to spend money in certain ways, and thus is in essence penalizing those that don't go that way by taxing them at a higher rate.

    If there was actually a case where a tax subside actually brought the amount of taxed revenue for the government DOWN in a grand scale I'd have less issue with it. But in general it seems our tax system is set up in such a way that we're taxed to higher degrees to compensate for the subsidies that are in place.

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