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what do YOU consider "middle class"?

what do you consider "middle class"?

  • 25k - 50k

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • 25k - 75k

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • 40k - 100k

    Votes: 12 33.3%
  • 50k - 100k

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • 50k - 125k

    Votes: 12 33.3%
  • 500k +

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    36
Is "Middle Class" living a certain lifestyle in general?

Is "Middle Class" Simply an amount you make and that's it?

Is "Middle Class" having certain key factors such as home, car, etc to qualify you as it?

Is "Middle Class" functioning at a certain level in comparison to those above and below you?

Some on here seem to consider a bit of all those. For example Kand seems to think its that second option so that someone making $50k a year is middle class...regardless if its allowing them to barely eak through month to month mostly paying bills, necessities, and minor luxuries while having to save for some time for anything more or if it allows them to go out every weekend, purchase luxury items on a monthly basis, and live a comfortable life. Others meanwhlie seem to think its less about how much you make and more the style of life one has, making it far more based on the cost of living.

There's not even a firm understanding of what "middle class" even is to be able to truly put a dollar value on it.

To clarify, I don't necessarily think that it's just the dollar value you earn that defines your class. I just think that if someone is only eeking out an existence on $50K, it's probably because of the expenses they chose to incur (i.e. having kids, living in an expensive city, taking on lots of debt, etc)...which I would regard as no different than a person driving a car they can't afford or living in a mansion they can't afford. And I say that as someone who lives in an expensive city and who took on $150K of debt to go through business school myself. It's all about choosing what expenses are most important to you IMO.

I would generally agree with your point that lifestyle also plays a role in defining class, although I would probably define "lifestyle" less in terms of material wealth than in terms of the person's mindset. So for example, I think a person earning $50K might be middle-class if they had a college education, took care of themselves and their family, and were moderately involved in their community. A person earning $50K might be upper-class if they had an advanced degree, believed they could and would change the world, and had lots of initiative and self-motivation. A person earning $50K might be lower-class if they constantly wasted their money on frivolous things, believed that bad things happened to them instead of because of their actions, and had no "big picture" mindset beyond their own life.
 
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Like someone else has said...it all depends on where you live...you could not do that in many states...in some not even close

Did you read the first sentence? "I think this kind of demonstrates why the whole idea of basing "middle class" on income is illconceived." I didn't think I needed to list every single factor that contributes to ones financial security/living conditions.
 
Middle Class for all intents and purposes is an income demographic. By that definition, households that earn between 30k a year and 166k a year fall within the middle class as they earn more than the bottom 25% of Americans, and less than the top 5% of Americans.

Within the Middle Class there are sub categories such as lower middle class, middle, and upper middle class. Basically, middle class is all relative to income demographics for a given country. For example, the income demographics for the Middle Class in the US and Canada are very similar, however you can earn far less a year in China and be considered Middle Class. Similarly, while 2k a year in China is not extreme poverty, here it would be. While 150k a year is not rich in the United States, in Somalia it would be. It's all relative. However, regardless of where you live or how many people are in your household, if you earn 15k a year you are not middle class and if you earn 300k a year you are not middle class.
 
Middle Class for all intents and purposes is an income demographic. By that definition, households that earn between 30k a year and 166k a year fall within the middle class as they earn more than the bottom 25% of Americans, and less than the top 5% of Americans.

Would need to give it more of a look to see how I feel about it, but I do like you having a very specific and statistic oriented definition for how you define middle class.
 
Middle Class for all intents and purposes is an income demographic. By that definition, households that earn between 30k a year and 166k a year fall within the middle class as they earn more than the bottom 25% of Americans, and less than the top 5% of Americans.

Within the Middle Class there are sub categories such as lower middle class, middle, and upper middle class. Basically, middle class is all relative to income demographics for a given country. For example, the income demographics for the Middle Class in the US and Canada are very similar, however you can earn far less a year in China and be considered Middle Class. Similarly, while 2k a year in China is not extreme poverty, here it would be. While 150k a year is not rich in the United States, in Somalia it would be. It's all relative. However, regardless of where you live or how many people are in your household, if you earn 15k a year you are not middle class and if you earn 300k a year you are not middle class.

I agree with your assessment. It is noteworthy that almost 1/3 of US households now fall under the $30K - $166K middle class range.

Household income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I love how these neat and tidy graphs, almost never account for government transfer payments, other forms of compensation like, medical insurance benefits, 401k contributions, etc.

If they did, we'd see the real number as much higher than stated.

It must be frustrating when the experts don't use assumptions that allow the facts to conform to the way Harry Guerrilla sees them.
 
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Really.
So forms of untaxed compensation like company paid medical insurance, company paid 401k contributions, government transfers of money to individuals, don't count as income?

STATS:

If Stephen Rose is an economist, couldn't he simply publish work in one of the peer reviewed economics journals if he disagrees with how his peers are calculating income demographics? It seems to me that if the current methods are that flawed, hundreds of economists would be challenging them in the journals to make a name for themselves.

Moreover, wealth transfers like Social Security and Medicare are taken into account when calculating poverty rates. Otherwise, the poverty rates for seniors would be much higher than it is (which is quite low).
 
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If Stephen Rose is an economist, couldn't he simply publish work in one of the peer reviewed economics journals if he disagrees with how his peers are calculating income demographics? It seems to me that if the current methods are that flawed, hundreds of economists would be challenging them in the journals to make a name for themselves.

They're clearly using tax statements as a means of measuring income and not total compensation, which is completely different.

Wealth transfers like EITC, Medicaid, Food stamps, 401k contributions from employers, Medical insurance payments by employers are not counted.
 
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Really.
So forms of untaxed compensation like company paid medical insurance, company paid 401k contributions, government transfers of money to individuals, don't count as income?

STATS:

"Another 2.6 million people slipped into poverty in the United States last year, the Census Bureau reported Tuesday, and the number of Americans living below the official poverty line, 46.2 million people, was the highest number in the 52 years the bureau has been publishing figures on it.

And in new signs of distress among the middle class, median household incomes fell last year to levels last seen in 1996.

Economists pointed to a telling statistic: It was the first time since the Great Depression that median household income, adjusted for inflation, had not risen over such a long period, said Lawrence Katz, an economics professor at Harvard.

“This is truly a lost decade,” Mr. Katz said. “We think of America as a place where every generation is doing better, but we’re looking at a period when the median family is in worse shape than it was in the late 1990s.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/14/us/14census.html?pagewanted=all
 
"Another 2.6 million people slipped into poverty in the United States last year, the Census Bureau reported Tuesday, and the number of Americans living below the official poverty line, 46.2 million people, was the highest number in the 52 years the bureau has been publishing figures on it.

And in new signs of distress among the middle class, median household incomes fell last year to levels last seen in 1996.

Economists pointed to a telling statistic: It was the first time since the Great Depression that median household income, adjusted for inflation, had not risen over such a long period, said Lawrence Katz, an economics professor at Harvard.

“This is truly a lost decade,” Mr. Katz said. “We think of America as a place where every generation is doing better, but we’re looking at a period when the median family is in worse shape than it was in the late 1990s.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/14/us/14census.html?pagewanted=all

Using the flawed census bureau data.
That gives an incomplete analysis of actual total income.

But yes, people tend to make less during times of economic recession and jobs tend to lag in a recovery.
 
Using the flawed census bureau data.
That gives an incomplete analysis of actual total income.

But yes, people tend to make less during times of economic recession and jobs tend to lag in a recovery.

The wealth disparity numbers were high in 2007, preceding the Great Recession, just as the wealth disparity was high preceding the Great Depression. You are trying to place the cart before the horse.
 

:shrug: Your source is largely biased bullcrap:

"Black established the (National) Post to provide a voice for Canadian conservatives and to combat what he and many Canadian conservatives considered to be a liberal bias in Canadian newspapers."

"Since Izzy Asper's acquisition of the National Post, the paper has become a strong voice in support of the state of Israel and its government."

"Politically, the Post has retained a conservative editorial stance under the Aspers' ownership, but has become markedly less strident"

"On May 19, 2006, the newspaper ran two pieces alleging that the Iranian parliament had passed a law requiring religious minorities to wear special identifying badges. One piece was a front page news item titled "IRAN EYES BADGES FOR JEWS" accompanied by a 1935 picture of two Jews bearing Nazi-ordered yellow badges. Later on the same day, experts began coming forward to deny the accuracy of the Post story. The story proved to be false, but not before it had been picked up by a variety of other news media and generated comment from world leaders."

"Since 1998, the Canadian Islamic Congress has been actively monitoring media coverage for anti-Muslim or anti-Islam sentiment and has issued reports highlighting its findings. It has opposed the use of phrases such as "Islamic guerrillas," "Islamic insurgency" and "Muslim militants" saying that terms like "militant" or "terrorist" should be used without a religious association "since no religion teaches or endorses terrorism, militancy or extremism."[14] The Congress has singled out the National Post, saying the paper "consistently is No. 1" as an anti-Islam media outlet"

National Post - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tell, you what, just have your conservative candidates tell the middle class that the pain they are feeling is not real, that compared to many third world countries, they would be considered rich, yeah, that's the ticket. Make your case!
 
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:shrug: Your source is largely biased bullcrap:

"Black established the (National) Post to provide a voice for Canadian conservatives and to combat what he and many Canadian conservatives considered to be a liberal bias in Canadian newspapers."

"Since Izzy Asper's acquisition of the National Post, the paper has become a strong voice in support of the state of Israel and its government."

"Politically, the Post has retained a conservative editorial stance under the Aspers' ownership, but has become markedly less strident"

"On May 19, 2006, the newspaper ran two pieces alleging that the Iranian parliament had passed a law requiring religious minorities to wear special identifying badges. One piece was a front page news item titled "IRAN EYES BADGES FOR JEWS" accompanied by a 1935 picture of two Jews bearing Nazi-ordered yellow badges. Later on the same day, experts began coming forward to deny the accuracy of the Post story. The story proved to be false, but not before it had been picked up by a variety of other news media and generated comment from world leaders."

"Since 1998, the Canadian Islamic Congress has been actively monitoring media coverage for anti-Muslim or anti-Islam sentiment and has issued reports highlighting its findings. It has opposed the use of phrases such as "Islamic guerrillas," "Islamic insurgency" and "Muslim militants" saying that terms like "militant" or "terrorist" should be used without a religious association "since no religion teaches or endorses terrorism, militancy or extremism."[14] The Congress has singled out the National Post, saying the paper "consistently is No. 1" as an anti-Islam media outlet"

National Post - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alright, you still aren't refuting the data.
So we'll try another source.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/10/forget-everything-youve-been-told-b.html
 
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Alright, you still aren't refuting the data.

Your data was already refuted by Lawrence Katz, economics professor at Harvard. (See above)



A libertarian economist???

"A conservative vote for Sen. McCain is a wasted vote. It is wasted because even if he is elected, he does not stand for conservative values and will not promote conservative values. Government will grow, spending will rise, and liberty will diminish.

But it looks increasingly likely that he won’t be elected, and no one will care about his vote totals if he loses. In contrast, a vote for Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party will be noticed and will have a lasting, positive impact. A vote for Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party will be a vote for liberty and for America’s future."

CARPE DIEM: Libertarian Candidate Bob Barr Makes His Case

Where do you find these people?
 
for me, there is. if you assume an average COL, say midwest, i believe between 50 - 125k is middle class. why? 50 - 125 allows for the purchase of a home, a decent car (s), and the ability to feed your family well. it's irrelevant if you've put yourself in deep debt, your income should cover all the necessities plus maybe a vacation.

It is definitely not irrelevant. Debt is the single most reliable destroyer of individual wealth and vacuum of income. Fully half of Americans say they couldn't scrape up $2,000 in cash in 30 days. I could write you a check today for five times that. Give me 36 hours and I could write you a check for twenty times that (without touching retirement or the kids education) with a few extra thousand left over, just in case. All of it on a "lower" income while raising a family - because I live debt free, and we save.
 
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A libertarian economist???

this is known as the "ad hominem" fallacy; used when the debater is either unwilling or unable to refute the material presented. just sayin. :)
 
this is known as the "ad hominem" fallacy; used when the debater is either unwilling or unable to refute the material presented. just sayin. :)

The decline and fall of the American middle class

"The heart of our political malaise is that the middle class, so long a powerhouse of US prosperity, is being crushed as never before"
The decline and fall of the American middle class | Paul Harris | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

"It's pretty clear that the rising inequality over the past 30 years has been associated with a rightward shift of the political center of gravity, mainly because of the Republican Party shifting to the right."
How to Save the Middle Class from Extinction | Economy | AlterNet

Many in U.S. slip from middle class, study finds

"Nearly one in three Americans who grew up middle-class has slipped down the income ladder as an adult, according to a new report by the Pew Charitable Trusts."
 
The decline and fall of the American middle class

"The heart of our political malaise is that the middle class, so long a powerhouse of US prosperity, is being crushed as never before"
The decline and fall of the American middle class | Paul Harris | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk[/quote]

let's look at some gems from this one:

The story contains some scary figures, such as the fact that the net worth of the middle fifth of American households has plunged by 26% in the last two years.​

Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that housing prices plummeted, but people dont' save.

the situation of some Detroit auto-workers, pointing out that new hires can find themselves working opposite long-term colleagues who do similar jobs yet earn twice as much. The system is called a "two tier" wage structure.

Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the massively unsustainable union compensation and benefits packages negotiated by UAW over the past few decades? Detroit is a little piece of the third world - right in the heart of America. It is the way it is because unions made it that way.


this article doesn't even manage to draw logical lines of causality between the trends he thinks he is identifying and any kind of cause. It's like he googled "wealth inequality" and then just slapped on a sentence at the end about it being unsustainable (which is, of course, incorrect - wealth disparity is the dominant form of dispersion in human history).

"It's pretty clear that the rising inequality over the past 30 years has been associated with a rightward shift of the political center of gravity, mainly because of the Republican Party shifting to the right."
How to Save the Middle Class from Extinction | Economy | AlterNet

actually to the extent that we have seen a straight division within the same populaces (no movement as you age, you remain poor), it is most closely correlated with single-parent households. :)

less than 10 percent of married couples with children are poor as compared with about 35 to 40 percent of single-mother families, and once you start looking at the kids the picture becomes even more stark: If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, nearly three quarters of the nation’s impoverished youth would immediately be lifted out of poverty

"Nearly one in three Americans who grew up middle-class has slipped down the income ladder as an adult, according to a new report by the Pew Charitable Trusts."

:doh

without even looking i know that this is largely because of age. Guess what - if you're raised middle class, when you start out, you're still generally starting out at the bottom of your respective ladder. You're not going to be making daddy and mommy's income straight out of college. yeesh :roll:
 
Some on here seem to consider a bit of all those. For example Kand seems to think its that second option so that someone making $50k a year is middle class...regardless if its allowing them to barely eak through month to month mostly paying bills, necessities, and minor luxuries while having to save for some time for anything more or if it allows them to go out every weekend, purchase luxury items on a monthly basis, and live a comfortable life. Others meanwhlie seem to think its less about how much you make and more the style of life one has, making it far more based on the cost of living.

I prefer defining it based on median incomes. If you're making a median income you are in the middle of incomes. If you're above that median, you're doing better than over 50% of people - can you be below middle class while being above the majority of people in incomes? When we start defining it by how many vacations or cars you can have, I dare say you can. Seems silly to be better off than the majority of people and consider yourself below middle class.

So, where would $50k a year not qualify as middle class?
 
"The heart of our political malaise is that the middle class, so long a powerhouse of US prosperity, is being crushed as never before"
The decline and fall of the American middle class | Paul Harris | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

let's look at some gems from this one:

The story contains some scary figures, such as the fact that the net worth of the middle fifth of American households has plunged by 26% in the last two years.​

Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that housing prices plummeted, but people dont' save.

Shows how out of touch you are with how bad it has been for the majority of the country, the redistribution of wealth over the last 30 years combined with consumer costs inflated beyond income gains resulted in less savings and more debt. As the facts showed "the income of the median American family, adjusted for inflation, is lower now than in 1998."



the situation of some Detroit auto-workers, pointing out that new hires can find themselves working opposite long-term colleagues who do similar jobs yet earn twice as much. The system is called a "two tier" wage structure.

Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the massively unsustainable union compensation and benefits packages negotiated by UAW over the past few decades? Detroit is a little piece of the third world - right in the heart of America. It is the way it is because unions made it that way.

You are indeed expressing the conservative perspective, that the middle class needs to learn to live on less, to enable the rich to get richer, as the study went on to say: it actually looks far more like the permanent shape of things to come. American society is bifurcating, squeezing the middle class out of existence. The ranks of the poor and low-income earners are growing and the rich are doing just fine – and no one is talking about it, much less doing anything about it."


this article doesn't even manage to draw logical lines of causality between the trends he thinks he is identifying and any kind of cause. It's like he googled "wealth inequality" and then just slapped on a sentence at the end about it being unsustainable (which is, of course, incorrect - wealth disparity is the dominant form of dispersion in human history).

Because you didn't read it, doesn't mean the logical lines of causality were not provided.

"The CEOs and high school teachers who got roughly the same number of years of formal education haven't exactly had the same growth in income over the past 30 years. So, there's this vast increase in inequality at the top. What do we think caused that?

So we've got skill bias and technological change, which is shifting demand towards highly educated workers. We've got growing international trade with increased imports of labor-intensive products further reducing demand for less educated workers. We have immigration, possibly similar in its effect to trade. We have the falling real value of the minimum wage contributing at the bottom end. We have some affected unionization driving the change in income distribution.
Finally, in terms of at least the after-tax distribution, we have changes in taxes which have, in general, reinforced rising inequality."



actually to the extent that we have seen a straight division within the same populaces (no movement as you age, you remain poor), it is most closely correlated with single-parent households. :)

less than 10 percent of married couples with children are poor as compared with about 35 to 40 percent of single-mother families, and once you start looking at the kids the picture becomes even more stark: If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, nearly three quarters of the nation’s impoverished youth would immediately be lifted out of poverty

I am sure this plays a small part, but there is no evidence to back up the claim made above. Additionally, it is the GOP that has been opposed to family planning and abortion rights.




without even looking i know that this is largely because of age. Guess what - if you're raised middle class, when you start out, you're still generally starting out at the bottom of your respective ladder. You're not going to be making daddy and mommy's income straight out of college. yeesh :roll:

Yeah its kind of obvious that you didn't look at the Pew study:

"The study focused on people who were middle-class teenagers in 1979 and who were between 39 and 44 years old in 2004 and 2006. It defines people as middle-class if they fall between the 30th and 70th percentiles in income distribution, which for a family of four is between $32,900 and $64,000 a year in 2010 dollars.


People were deemed downwardly mobile if they fell below the 30th percentile in income, if their income rank was 20 or more percentiles below their parents’ rank, or if they earn at least 20 percent less than their parents. The findings do not cover the difficult times that the nation has endured since 2007.

Pew researchers said the study’s structure did not permit an analysis of whether upward mobility has become more difficult through the years. Nonetheless, some economists point to growing income inequality and widely stagnating wages as evidence that the American Dream is slipping out of reach for many people."
 
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