what do YOU consider "middle class"?

digsbe said:

I would say 40k to around 80k a year is middle class. I voted 40-100 though.

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I voted the same.

Harry Guerrilla said:

To subjective to make an actual declaration.
My definition, anyone who says they are middle class.

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another excellent point my be style of living. In college, I lived with a man who was technically a multi-millionaire. I say technically because he generally had the exact same lifestyle that I did - and generally lived off of the same income I did (we both worked at the same restaurant). His "income" from investments he would use for bigger purchases (a car, etc); but we both slept on mattresses we put on the floor, and our biggest expenses outside of rent were books and eating out.

If you've ever read "The Millionaire Next Door" or "The Millionaire Mind" (it's sequel), then you know that most millionaires actually live lives we would consider generally upper middle class. They drive used cars and shop for clothes at the same places everyone else does. They live Middle Class Lives.

Along with the fact that everyone's familial situations are different and Cost of Living varies wildly, this is one of the problems with trying to put a hard definition on what the "middle v upper v lower classes" are. I'm not sure why we would want to, anyway.

DiAnna said:

The definition of "middle class" would vary by region. For example, $50-$100k annual income might be fine for a family of four in the mid-west, but a family of four living in San Francisco, NYC, Miami, and other expensive areas would be economically stressed just to provide the basics. A family of four living on $25K a year is not middle-class anywhere; it's poverty-level existance.

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:shrug: we were doing alright for ourselves when we were making around that as a family of 3. Considering that we were debt free and able to save - we were actually better off than many who were making more. There are plenty of people who make large paychecks who aren't wealthy simply because they spend it all and then some - their pay could be 4 times mine, but they are dependent paycheck to paycheck and I am not. My cousin and her husband have a combined income of (I think) around 75-85K with no kids; but they are deeply in debt from Grad and Law school, and so they are "poorer" than I am.

too many variables to slap a simple income number on it and declare "the middle class ends and begins here"

I hate the question because its not realistic.

Middle Class in Southwestern VA is different than Middle Class in Hampton Roads VA is different than middle class in Northern VA.

A single person can be Middle Class at a different level than a Married Couples who can be at a different level than a family of four.

Not to mention you then have the "lower" and "upper" middle classes where an individual is clearly not part of the poor or low class and not part of the rich or upper class and yet are on the various extremes of the fat middle.

Finally it also doesn't take into account other factors into your life style, such as the class level of parents or other such things.

For example with me...

When living in Roanoke, VA I would've easily been on the probably within the middle class making the $40k I was making early on here in NOVA. However, making that much in NOVA definitely had me low down in the lower middle class range I'd say. And during the first few years when I was supporting myself and my wife (GF at the time) while she was in school I'd even possibly say low class. At the same time, we both had furniture and items that were not common of "low class" that were hold overs from living with our parents (lower middle, and middle) and some support from them which changed things up a bit.

I just think the entire thing is arbitrary as well. Like "What" is middle class. Even when I was hard up here in Northern VA I still:

1. Had a two bedroom apartment
2. Had two TV's
3. Had a computer
4. Had a laptop
5. Had a smart phone with a monthly plan
6. Had a car
7. Had Cable and Internet
8. Was able to go out to a bar, dinner, movie, etc every few weeks
9. Was able to have food for breakfast, lunch, and dinner along with alcoholic drinks and snacks
10. Had video game systems

I don't think in any way I was living a lower class lifestyle. Money was hard to come by but it was intelligently using it. When things did start getting really tough thankfully my wife was close to finishing up school and was able to take on a part time job and then after graduating a full time.

And yet financially, at the time and compared to the average individual around us, we were definitely on the low end and based on bills and the cost of things any kind of extra item we didn't already have that we wanted, or any kind of "night out" we wanted, needed to be saved for for a little bit to go do.

Helix said:

you just explained why those in this income group are not middle class. a middle class salary allows the worker the option of having a child without being destitute.

i'm in the same boat. i simply can't afford to have a child.

that's not middle class.

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I don't think you can define "middle class" by including elective options. There are many people who don't want children. There are many people who want children later. To say that they aren't middle class because they don't have kids/don't have the income for kids seems...well, ridiculous (to be quite honest). Right now I make enough money to support myself, save, and spend modestly. I am not poor, destitute, suffering in anyway. I'm not receiving a multitude of extraneous deductions on my taxes to support myself (and my family). I'm not relying on government aid to survive. To say that I can't qualify as middle class on a purely arbitrary point is dumb.

cpwill said:

:shrug: we were doing alright for ourselves when we were making around that as a family of 3. Considering that we were debt free and able to save - we were actually better off than many who were making more. There are plenty of people who make large paychecks who aren't wealthy simply because they spend it all and then some - their pay could be 4 times mine, but they are dependent paycheck to paycheck and I am not. My cousin and her husband have a combined income of (I think) around 75-85K with no kids; but they are deeply in debt from Grad and Law school, and so they are "poorer" than I am.

too many variables to slap a simple income number on it and declare "the middle class ends and begins here"

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Yep, debt is a huge thing.

I'm still over $25k in debt for Student Loans; in large part my own fault for being the type of personality that tends to at times splurge on "entertainment" items (like a new iphone) rather than saving up and paying off a big hunk. My wife on the flip side actually had been paying off her loans all throughout school and then massively afterwords and is now completely paid off. We both make roughly the same amount of money, but whlie mine is going to various debts her extra is going into a retirement fund.

I have a friend who makes less than me, however his father died (His mother died when he was much younger) and he inhereted the paid off house. He doens't have a mortgage payment and as such has a fair bit more disposable income than I do.

Going back to my wife and I. My wife would likely live somewhat like the lower class if given her druthers, even though she'd be making significantly more. She's hard pressed to splurge on "luxury" or "entertainment" type items, would be fine in a tiny small house or apartment, doesn't go on big trips or out to huge events most of the time. She's always got a fair bit of cash saved up due to it. On the flip side I'm the type that likes to spend the money I have to enjoy the things I want to enjoy because that's why I work. I typically have far less money immedietely on hand because of it but the appearance of my life style would be better because I have and am doing more stuff.

Its such an abstract concept that unfortunately has been so polarized and politicized as of late that its tried to be made into some solidified thing and it just doens't really work.

$150k for a family of 3 up here in NOVA could potentially be solid middle class. Back home in Roanoke VA it'd be upper middle class for that same family of 3, and wealthy if it was just a single person.

Is "Middle Class" living a certain lifestyle in general?

Is "Middle Class" Simply an amount you make and that's it?

Is "Middle Class" having certain key factors such as home, car, etc to qualify you as it?

Is "Middle Class" functioning at a certain level in comparison to those above and below you?

Some on here seem to consider a bit of all those. For example Kand seems to think its that second option so that someone making $50k a year is middle class...regardless if its allowing them to barely eak through month to month mostly paying bills, necessities, and minor luxuries while having to save for some time for anything more or if it allows them to go out every weekend, purchase luxury items on a monthly basis, and live a comfortable life. Others meanwhlie seem to think its less about how much you make and more the style of life one has, making it far more based on the cost of living.

There's not even a firm understanding of what "middle class" even is to be able to truly put a dollar value on it.

Zyphlin said:

Is "Middle Class" living a certain lifestyle in general?

Is "Middle Class" Simply an amount you make and that's it?

Is "Middle Class" having certain key factors such as home, car, etc to qualify you as it?

Is "Middle Class" functioning at a certain level in comparison to those above and below you?

Some on here seem to consider a bit of all those. For example Kand seems to think its that second option so that someone making $50k a year is middle class...regardless if its allowing them to barely eak through month to month mostly paying bills, necessities, and minor luxuries while having to save for some time for anything more or if it allows them to go out every weekend, purchase luxury items on a monthly basis, and live a comfortable life. Others meanwhlie seem to think its less about how much you make and more the style of life one has, making it far more based on the cost of living.

There's not even a firm understanding of what "middle class" even is to be able to truly put a dollar value on it.

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for me, there is. if you assume an average COL, say midwest, i believe between 50 - 125k is middle class. why? 50 - 125 allows for the purchase of a home, a decent car (s), and the ability to feed your family well. it's irrelevant if you've put yourself in deep debt, your income should cover all the necessities plus maybe a vacation.

tessaesque said:

I do, which gives me more capacity to save and spend than I'd have without his income, but I can technically survive on my own in an apartment that's less than $600/month, which is easily done down here. His income would put us in the 40k-100k category, but we both came into the relationship self-sustaining and have worked to make sure we stay that way (just in case).

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technically you can survive? that's not middle class. rent, utilities, car payment, phone, internet, food, and clothing would just about use your salary up. it's a bit disengenuous to say that you can do all of those things (including save much) on just your salary. you are middle class because you share expenses. please don't be offended, i know plenty of people who don't make a lot of money. that's not my point.

Zyphlin said:

Is "Middle Class" living a certain lifestyle in general?

Is "Middle Class" Simply an amount you make and that's it?

Is "Middle Class" having certain key factors such as home, car, etc to qualify you as it?

Is "Middle Class" functioning at a certain level in comparison to those above and below you?

Some on here seem to consider a bit of all those. For example Kand seems to think its that second option so that someone making $50k a year is middle class...regardless if its allowing them to barely eak through month to month mostly paying bills, necessities, and minor luxuries while having to save for some time for anything more or if it allows them to go out every weekend, purchase luxury items on a monthly basis, and live a comfortable life. Others meanwhlie seem to think its less about how much you make and more the style of life one has, making it far more based on the cost of living.

There's not even a firm understanding of what "middle class" even is to be able to truly put a dollar value on it.

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Being "middle class" to me means that, barring any self-selected debt accruals, your income allows you to pay your bills, save for unexpected events, and spend modestly. There is no specific income that allows for that, so picking an income level seems arbitrary.

liblady said:

technically you can survive? that's not middle class. rent, utilities, car payment, phone, internet, food, and clothing would just about use your salary up. it's a bit disengenuous to say that you can do all of those things (including save much) on just your salary. you are middle class because you share expenses. please don't be offended, i know plenty of people who don't make a lot of money. that's not my point.

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What I mean was...if we broke up tomorrow and I moved out on my own I could afford an apartment, internet, my cell phone, food, savings, and spending money. So "technically", I can survive on my own. I do not currently live on my own, so I'm not currently surviving on my own. I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

tessaesque said:

What I mean was...if we broke up tomorrow and I moved out on my own I could afford an apartment, internet, my cell phone, food, savings, and spending money. So "technically", I can survive on my own. I do not currently live on my own, so I'm not currently surviving on my own. I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

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ok. i wan't arguing that, necessarily. i just don't think you could save much unless you lived very frugally.

if you can afford to make a down payment, buy an apartment, afford two cars, pay for 2 vacations per year, you are middle class.

which makes me.....not middle class.

liblady said:

ok. i wan't arguing that, necessarily. i just don't think you could save much unless you lived very frugally.

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Based on my income and monthly obligations, rent in this area, food, and the cost of utilities/internet I would be able to save about $300 a month and have about $400 to spend on whatever, give or take. I don't think that's incredibly "frugal" living for one person, to be honest.

Of course, I spent much of my childhood in abject poverty with my mother, so I never really had a chance to jump on the material wealth, keeping up with the joneses bandwagon.

Thunder said:

if you can afford to make a down payment, buy an apartment, afford two cars, pay for 2 vacations per year, you are middle class.

which makes me.....not middle class.

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Really? Being middle class means you can take two vacations a year? And two cars? Why? What if you don't need cars or like vacations? Why place arbitrary qualifiers on what middle class is based on things people don't need or might not want?

tessaesque said:

Really? Being middle class means you can take two vacations a year? And two cars? Why? What if you don't need cars or like vacations? Why place arbitrary qualifiers on what middle class is based on things people don't need or might not want?

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Even if you don't like these things, the financial ability is still there.

tessaesque said:

Really? Being middle class means you can take two vacations a year? And two cars? Why? What if you don't need cars or like vacations? Why place arbitrary qualifiers on what middle class is based on things people don't need or might not want?

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it's what you can afford to do, not what you actually do. middle class is not being terrified your washer will quit, or your engine will blow.

tessaesque said:

Based on my income and monthly obligations, rent in this area, food, and the cost of utilities/internet I would be able to save about $300 a month and have about $400 to spend on whatever, give or take. I don't think that's incredibly "frugal" living for one person, to be honest.

Of course, I spent much of my childhood in abject poverty with my mother, so I never really had a chance to jump on the material wealth, keeping up with the joneses bandwagon.

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same here......we were very poor and my mother was much like yours. i don't care about material goods either, hence the living on a boat!

liblady said:

it's what you can afford to do, not what you actually do. middle class is not being terrified your washer will quit, or your engine will blow.

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This is probably the best definition of middle class I have seen so far in this thread.

liblady said:

it's what you can afford to do, not what you actually do. middle class is not being terrified your washer will quit, or your engine will blow.

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Excellent point. Yesterday, I took my car in because I was losing coolant somewhere, they said the water pump was leaking and ought to be replaced. Since they were going to have that off anyhow and I was getting close to time to replace my timing chain, they might as well do that, plus a few other little things. Ended up costing me about $800. Then we went out and bought a whole new phone system for the house for about $150, then went out for a nice $80 dinner. Paid everything cash (well, ATM card) without breaking a sweat. I'm not only not terrified of anything like that, I'm not even remotely concerned.

Cephus said:

Excellent point. Yesterday, I took my car in because I was losing coolant somewhere, they said the water pump was leaking and ought to be replaced. Since they were going to have that off anyhow and I was getting close to time to replace my timing chain, they might as well do that, plus a few other little things. Ended up costing me about $800. Then we went out and bought a whole new phone system for the house for about $150, then went out for a nice $80 dinner. Paid everything cash (well, ATM card) without breaking a sweat. I'm not only not terrified of anything like that, I'm not even remotely concerned.

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then you are blessed. i've been in the situation of constantly worrying, and it sucks.

liblady said:

then you are blessed. i've been in the situation of constantly worrying, and it sucks.

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I have been in both situations. I prefer having money to spend.

liblady said:

then you are blessed. i've been in the situation of constantly worrying, and it sucks.

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I'm not blessed, I work my ass off to be in a situation where I can do that. I've earned it.

liblady said:

it's what you can afford to do, not what you actually do. middle class is not being terrified your washer will quit, or your engine will blow.

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Right, middle class is the ability to live on what you make while saving/spending modestly. I still don't see why we have to define that with arbitrary qualifiers.

tessaesque said:

I think this kind of demonstrates why the whole idea of basing "middle class" on income is ill-conceived. I make less than 30k a year right now, but I have a nice car (paid off in another 8 months, woot!), I can afford rent, I'm saving for a house, I have a nice cell phone/calling plan, high speed internet, spending money, health insurance, etc....and I receive no government subsistence aid for housing, health care, food, general expenses, etc. Based on the standard view of "middle class" I would fit, but based on income many people would discount me.

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Like someone else has said...it all depends on where you live...you could not do that in many states...in some not even close