View Poll Results: what do you consider "middle class"?

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  • 25k - 50k

    3 6.82%
  • 25k - 75k

    5 11.36%
  • 40k - 100k

    14 31.82%
  • 50k - 100k

    8 18.18%
  • 50k - 125k

    14 31.82%
  • 500k +

    0 0%
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Thread: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

  1. #81
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Lots of flaws in those charts:

    1. Per capita is not typically used by economists to compare income growth because unlike median house household income's per-capita income comparisons are highly distorted by extremes in income on the high end.
    That's largely why they didn't include the higher income brackets, to remove the skew.
    Median household income is also greatly flawed, it doesn't show a decline in the number of persons per household, government transfers and spending offsets compensated by employers.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    2. The chart only includes lower income brackets.
    Explained above.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    3. The chart is intellectually dishonest because it starts at the beginning of an income boom - 1994, and ends just before a deep recession - 2007. The years from 1994 thru 2000 just happen to be the only years of real median income growth in the last 30 years.

    4. It doesn't look to be inflation adjusted.
    There was a recession in between that as well, the dot com bust.

    Inflation adjusted shows an average yoy 1% increase in income.

    CARPE DIEM: More on the "Decline of the Middle Class" Myth
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #82
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    I consider this poll badly designed it's nearly meaningless.
    The options all Overlap. So heavily overlap as to make them indistinguishable from one another.
    25k - 50k
    25k - 75k
    40k - 100k
    50k - 100k
    50k - 125k
    500k +
    Both 1 And 2 include people making 30k, 40k, 50k.

    Options 3, 4, 5,
    40k - 100k
    50k - 100k
    50k - 125k
    Are virtually the Same. All 3 include people making 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k, 90k, 100k!

    and No options in between 125k and 500k.
    So if someone feels 150k (or anything between 125k-500k) is Middle class, they have Nothing to vote for.
    But if you feel 50k is middle class, you can vote for 5 of the choices.

    Much Better/Meaningful would have been. ie
    25k-50k
    50k-75k
    75k-100k
    100k-150k
    150k-250k
    250k+
    Last edited by mbig; 10-14-11 at 06:43 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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  3. #83
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    I consider this poll so badly designed/conceived as to be meaningless.
    The options all Overlap. So heavily overlap as to make the indistinguishable from one another.
    Options 3, 4, 5,
    40k - 100k
    50k - 100k
    50k - 125k
    Are virtually the Same. All 3 include people making 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k, 90k, 100k!

    Much Better/Meaningful would have been.
    25k-50k
    50k-75k
    75k-100k
    100k-150k
    150k-250k
    Yeah and he or she could've made it so you could select more than one.
    Last edited by Jryan; 10-14-11 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Trying to be more politically correct with my pronouns.

  4. #84
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You must have a good wife.
    "good" does not begin to cover it. I am blessed with one of the best of wives who is the best partner I could ever hope to have.

  5. #85
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Shows how out of touch you are with how bad it has been for the majority of the country
    well, I'm a federal employee, so that is a possibility that I shouldn't discount. When you're a government worker, economic reality rarely bothers you.

    the redistribution of wealth over the last 30 years
    has been overwhelmingly from the wealthy to the poor.

    combined with consumer costs inflated beyond income gains resulted in less savings and more debt.
    this is incorrect. I've lived debt free for years now, and saved large portions of my income for the same amount of time in low-income-rising-prices environment. furthermore, the household demographics that have shifted the most from net savers to net debters are on the higher end of the middle class scale. What has occured is that among those getting closer to retirement, the WWII vets who were great savers have been replaced by the Boomers, who are profligate spenders.

    As the facts showed "the income of the median American family, adjusted for inflation, is lower now than in 1998."
    at the tail end of a deep recession, yes; however, that's only one factor - compensation is not lower, but higher. Compensation, you see, tends to be taxed less than income, which gives employers and employees an incentive to prefer advances in compensation over advances in pay over time.

    You are indeed expressing the conservative perspective, that the middle class needs to learn to live on less
    the savings rate for a while there went to negative. you are absolutely correct that the middle class (America as a whole) needs to learn to consume less and save more. If I can save 10% while raising a family on $2,500 a month; I'm pretty sure most others can as well.

    to enable the rich to get richer
    to enable us all to get richer. living debt free and saving and investing your money is the simple-stupid-no-kidding way to wealth that anyone can follow.

    American society is bifurcating, squeezing the middle class out of existence.
    not really. to the extent we are bifurcating it is largely to a permanent underclass who fail to form productive two-parent families, and successful society made up of those who do.

    The ranks of the poor and low-income earners are growing and the rich are doing just fine – and no one is talking about it, much less doing anything about it."
    perhaps you can explain to me how my proposal to alter Social Security in order to give low-income workers financial independence upon retirement was met with universal rejection by the left? it seems that everyone is talking about those who are suffering - but whereas liberals want to ease their poverty, conservatives want to get them out of poverty.

    Because you didn't read it, doesn't mean the logical lines of causality were not provided.
    actually I did read it. It looked like the kind of thing a particularly bright liberal would write... for his college newspaper.

    The CEOs and high school teachers who got roughly the same number of years of formal education haven't exactly had the same growth in income over the past 30 years.
    that is correct. this is due not a little to the fact that whereas corporate leadership is a brutal world of competition marked by high pay for performers, teaching has been a unionized protected workforce which has rejected higher pay for performance.

    So we've got skill bias and technological change, which is shifting demand towards highly educated workers.
    in particular fields. It is worth noting that even in our highly credentialed age and even with 9% "official" unemployment, we are still suffering a shortage of Science and Technology workers.

    We've got growing international trade with increased imports of labor-intensive products further reducing demand for less educated workers.
    and yet we continue to educate our own workers poorly.

    We have immigration, possibly similar in its effect to trade
    I am more than willing to acknowledge that massive illegal immigration has severely harmed our lowest-income low-skilled workers.

    I am sure this plays a small part, but there is no evidence to back up the claim made above.
    and you say I don't read your sources? that information came from the US Census.

    Additionally, it is the GOP that has been opposed to family planning and abortion rights.
    well it is true that we don't think killing children is a good option. that's why instead we support family-friendly tax code alterations, and teaching people not to hump like rabbits until you are married.

    Yeah its kind of obvious that you didn't look at the Pew study:

    "The study focused on people who were middle-class teenagers in 1979 and who were between 39 and 44 years old in 2004 and 2006. It defines people as middle-class if they fall between the 30th and 70th percentiles in income distribution, which for a family of four is between $32,900 and $64,000 a year in 2010 dollars.
    Did you read the article you cited?

    Downward mobility is most common among middle-class people who are divorced or separated from their spouses, did not attend college, scored poorly on standardized tests, or used hard drugs, the report says.

    so tell me, how are the evil rich forcing people to divorce or use heroin?

    oh look, it continues on:

    The report found that being married helps people avoid the worst economic outcomes. Women who are divorced, widowed or separated are much more likely to fall down the economic ladder than their married counterparts. For men, the differences are not as dramatic, although married men are more likely than single men to retain their middle- class status as adults...



    you evidently also only read the article rather than the actual study. May I suggest, for example, that you take a look at Page 9.

    Among the factors deemed most likely to cause someone to fall from the middle class (combining the scores for men and women), according to this study:

    1. Divorce.
    2. Never got Married.
    3. Has used Crack.
    4. High School or Less Education (v college grad).
    5. High School or Less Education (v some college).

    well huh. would you look at that. somehow "mugged by a guy wearing a Brooks Brothers Suit" doesn't seem to have made it onto the list...

  6. #86
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Let's see, the richest 20% own 85% of the wealth now, what do you claim the ration was 30 years ago?
    Most of that wealth is illiquid, meaning that it's not in cash form.
    If they tried to sell those "things" for cash, they would get a fraction of the illiquid worth.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #87
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well, I'm a federal employee, so that is a possibility that I shouldn't discount. When you're a government worker, economic reality rarely bothers you.
    LOL! You mean to tell me you are an employee of the federal government, and bitching about one of the most stable employers today, your own no less??? You just sank in my estimation of your credibility.


    has been overwhelmingly from the wealthy to the poor.
    Let's see, the richest 20% own 85% of the wealth now, what do you claim the ration was 30 years ago?


    this is incorrect. I've lived debt free for years now.................
    I'm so happy for you, unfortunately for the conservatives, the majority of the country has been forced into higher debt through lowered income relative to inflation and taxes.


    at the tail end of a deep recession, yes; however, that's only one factor - compensation is not lower, but higher. Compensation, you see, tends to be taxed less than income, which gives employers and employees an incentive to prefer advances in compensation over advances in pay over time
    .

    It already was in 2007. Are you talking about the compensations that are being taken away such as the teacher's compensation's for ****ty pay?
    the savings rate for a while there went to negative. you are absolutely correct that the middle class (America as a whole) needs to learn to consume less and save more. If I can save 10% while raising a family on $2,500 a month; I'm pretty sure most others can as well.
    All the middle class has to do is to learn to lower our standard of living, right? Where is this binge spending problem by the middle class that I missed? I was sort of under the impression that manufactures were not producing because there is no demand.

    Sounds to me like you are going to have a hard time selling that case to the middle class voters.



    to enable us all to get richer. living debt free and saving and investing your money is the simple-stupid-no-kidding way to wealth that anyone can follow.
    You see that "all" part is what ain't been happening over the last 30 years. Very key that "all" is!



    not really. to the extent we are bifurcating it is largely to a permanent underclass who fail to form productive two-parent families, and successful society made up of those who do.
    Again, total BS, but a great campaign slogan for your side!


    perhaps you can explain to me how my proposal to alter Social Security in order to give low-income workers financial independence upon retirement was met with universal rejection by the left? it seems that everyone is talking about those who are suffering - but whereas liberals want to ease their poverty, conservatives want to get them out of poverty
    Because it is a dip**** idea that even the GOP wouldn't dare suggest. Social Security doesn't have a financial problem, the general fund has a financial problem.



    actually I did read it. It looked like the kind of thing a particularly bright liberal would write... for his college newspaper.
    Actually, it looked like it was written by a Nobel prize winning economist that wrote it.



    that is correct. this is due not a little to the fact that whereas corporate leadership is a brutal world of competition marked by high pay for performers, teaching has been a unionized protected workforce which has rejected higher pay for performance.
    Right out of Fascism 101 that one is.



    in particular fields. It is worth noting that even in our highly credentialed age and even with 9% "official" unemployment, we are still suffering a shortage of Science and Technology workers.
    If you can't afford education it is of little benefit.



    and yet we continue to educate our own workers poorly.
    Agreed, there is a greater need for more affordable education. It should be a priority.


    I am more than willing to acknowledge that massive illegal immigration has severely harmed our lowest-income low-skilled workers.
    And so easily solvable, just crack down on the employer's of illegal immigrants.


    and you say I don't read your sources? that information came from the US Census.
    It came from a misinterpretation of the Census data.



    well it is true that we don't think killing children is a good option. that's why instead we support family-friendly tax code alterations, and teaching people not to hump like rabbits until you are married.
    No, GOP submitted bills to cut family planning, and they wish to cut funding for the support of children after they are born.



    Did you read the article you cited?

    Downward mobility is most common among middle-class people who are divorced or separated from their spouses, did not attend college, scored poorly on standardized tests, or used hard drugs, the report says.

    so tell me, how are the evil rich forcing people to divorce or use heroin?

    oh look, it continues on:

    The report found that being married helps people avoid the worst economic outcomes. Women who are divorced, widowed or separated are much more likely to fall down the economic ladder than their married counterparts. For men, the differences are not as dramatic, although married men are more likely than single men to retain their middle- class status as adults...
    Another good reason not to cut funding for family planning as the GOP has proposed.



    you evidently also only read the article rather than the actual study. May I suggest, for example, that you take a look at Page 9.

    Among the factors deemed most likely to cause someone to fall from the middle class (combining the scores for men and women), according to this study:

    1. Divorce.
    2. Never got Married.
    3. Has used Crack.
    4. High School or Less Education (v college grad).
    5. High School or Less Education (v some college).

    well huh. would you look at that. somehow "mugged by a guy wearing a Brooks Brothers Suit" doesn't seem to have made it onto the list...

    You have no clue about the socio-economic reasons for the above list, do you? You see it simply as someone being too lazy to pull himself up by his bootstrap with his own little white hand, right?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Most of that wealth is illiquid, meaning that it's not in cash form.
    If they tried to sell those "things" for cash, they would get a fraction of the illiquid worth.
    That definition has not changed in 30 years, what has changed is the number of examples of illiquid wealth (houses, cars, antiques, private company interests) owned by the most wealthy.

    Are you saying these items of wealth are a burden rather than a blessing? We will have to see what we can do to relieve the wealthy of this terrible burden you speak of.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #89
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That definition has not changed in 30 years, what has changed is the number of examples of illiquid wealth (houses, cars, antiques, private company interests) owned by the most wealthy.

    Are you saying these items of wealth are a burden rather than a blessing? We will have to see what we can do to relieve the wealthy of this terrible burden you speak of.
    They, nor you, nor the government, could possibly do anything to "rid" them of it and retain their full value.
    That's the thing, you don't understand any of the underlying principles about what wealth is and how illiquid assets don't translate directly to cash.

    Make any attempt at a massive confiscation of these resources and they will be sold, causing an economic cataclysm, you've never seen before.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #90
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    They, nor you, nor the government, could possibly do anything to "rid" them of it and retain their full value.
    That's the thing, you don't understand any of the underlying principles about what wealth is and how illiquid assets don't translate directly to cash.

    Make any attempt at a massive confiscation of these resources and they will be sold, causing an economic cataclysm, you've never seen before.
    I understand wealth enough to know that we had much higher tax rates for the wealthy and we had no economic cataclysm. If fact, we had the strongest middle class in history! It seems to be you that does not understand that if too much wealth is concentrated at the top, a consumer economy cannot prosper. We had our first lesson on this in the Great Depression, and we are experiencing another lesson currently.

    "Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."

    No one is talking about a massive confiscation of those resources. We are simply talking about reducing the "temporary" tax breaks enjoyed by rich, while the majority of our citizens, and the economy, suffer.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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