View Poll Results: what do you consider "middle class"?

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Thread: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

  1. #71
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A libertarian economist???
    this is known as the "ad hominem" fallacy; used when the debater is either unwilling or unable to refute the material presented. just sayin.

  2. #72
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    this is known as the "ad hominem" fallacy; used when the debater is either unwilling or unable to refute the material presented. just sayin.
    The decline and fall of the American middle class

    "The heart of our political malaise is that the middle class, so long a powerhouse of US prosperity, is being crushed as never before"
    The decline and fall of the American middle class | Paul Harris | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

    "It's pretty clear that the rising inequality over the past 30 years has been associated with a rightward shift of the political center of gravity, mainly because of the Republican Party shifting to the right."
    How to Save the Middle Class from Extinction | Economy | AlterNet

    Many in U.S. slip from middle class, study finds

    "Nearly one in three Americans who grew up middle-class has slipped down the income ladder as an adult, according to a new report by the Pew Charitable Trusts."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #73
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The decline and fall of the American middle class
    "The heart of our political malaise is that the middle class, so long a powerhouse of US prosperity, is being crushed as never before"
    The decline and fall of the American middle class | Paul Harris | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk[/quote]

    let's look at some gems from this one:

    The story contains some scary figures, such as the fact that the net worth of the middle fifth of American households has plunged by 26% in the last two years.

    Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that housing prices plummeted, but people dont' save.

    the situation of some Detroit auto-workers, pointing out that new hires can find themselves working opposite long-term colleagues who do similar jobs yet earn twice as much. The system is called a "two tier" wage structure.

    Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the massively unsustainable union compensation and benefits packages negotiated by UAW over the past few decades? Detroit is a little piece of the third world - right in the heart of America. It is the way it is because unions made it that way.


    this article doesn't even manage to draw logical lines of causality between the trends he thinks he is identifying and any kind of cause. It's like he googled "wealth inequality" and then just slapped on a sentence at the end about it being unsustainable (which is, of course, incorrect - wealth disparity is the dominant form of dispersion in human history).

    "It's pretty clear that the rising inequality over the past 30 years has been associated with a rightward shift of the political center of gravity, mainly because of the Republican Party shifting to the right."
    How to Save the Middle Class from Extinction | Economy | AlterNet
    actually to the extent that we have seen a straight division within the same populaces (no movement as you age, you remain poor), it is most closely correlated with single-parent households.

    less than 10 percent of married couples with children are poor as compared with about 35 to 40 percent of single-mother families, and once you start looking at the kids the picture becomes even more stark: If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, nearly three quarters of the nation’s impoverished youth would immediately be lifted out of poverty

    "Nearly one in three Americans who grew up middle-class has slipped down the income ladder as an adult, according to a new report by the Pew Charitable Trusts."


    without even looking i know that this is largely because of age. Guess what - if you're raised middle class, when you start out, you're still generally starting out at the bottom of your respective ladder. You're not going to be making daddy and mommy's income straight out of college. yeesh

  4. #74
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Some on here seem to consider a bit of all those. For example Kand seems to think its that second option so that someone making $50k a year is middle class...regardless if its allowing them to barely eak through month to month mostly paying bills, necessities, and minor luxuries while having to save for some time for anything more or if it allows them to go out every weekend, purchase luxury items on a monthly basis, and live a comfortable life. Others meanwhlie seem to think its less about how much you make and more the style of life one has, making it far more based on the cost of living.
    I prefer defining it based on median incomes. If you're making a median income you are in the middle of incomes. If you're above that median, you're doing better than over 50% of people - can you be below middle class while being above the majority of people in incomes? When we start defining it by how many vacations or cars you can have, I dare say you can. Seems silly to be better off than the majority of people and consider yourself below middle class.

    So, where would $50k a year not qualify as middle class?

  5. #75
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    "The heart of our political malaise is that the middle class, so long a powerhouse of US prosperity, is being crushed as never before"
    The decline and fall of the American middle class | Paul Harris | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

    let's look at some gems from this one:

    The story contains some scary figures, such as the fact that the net worth of the middle fifth of American households has plunged by 26% in the last two years.

    Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that housing prices plummeted, but people dont' save.
    Shows how out of touch you are with how bad it has been for the majority of the country, the redistribution of wealth over the last 30 years combined with consumer costs inflated beyond income gains resulted in less savings and more debt. As the facts showed "the income of the median American family, adjusted for inflation, is lower now than in 1998."



    the situation of some Detroit auto-workers, pointing out that new hires can find themselves working opposite long-term colleagues who do similar jobs yet earn twice as much. The system is called a "two tier" wage structure.

    Gosh. I wonder if that has anything to do with the massively unsustainable union compensation and benefits packages negotiated by UAW over the past few decades? Detroit is a little piece of the third world - right in the heart of America. It is the way it is because unions made it that way.
    You are indeed expressing the conservative perspective, that the middle class needs to learn to live on less, to enable the rich to get richer, as the study went on to say: it actually looks far more like the permanent shape of things to come. American society is bifurcating, squeezing the middle class out of existence. The ranks of the poor and low-income earners are growing and the rich are doing just fine – and no one is talking about it, much less doing anything about it."


    this article doesn't even manage to draw logical lines of causality between the trends he thinks he is identifying and any kind of cause. It's like he googled "wealth inequality" and then just slapped on a sentence at the end about it being unsustainable (which is, of course, incorrect - wealth disparity is the dominant form of dispersion in human history).
    Because you didn't read it, doesn't mean the logical lines of causality were not provided.

    "The CEOs and high school teachers who got roughly the same number of years of formal education haven't exactly had the same growth in income over the past 30 years. So, there's this vast increase in inequality at the top. What do we think caused that?

    So we've got skill bias and technological change, which is shifting demand towards highly educated workers. We've got growing international trade with increased imports of labor-intensive products further reducing demand for less educated workers. We have immigration, possibly similar in its effect to trade. We have the falling real value of the minimum wage contributing at the bottom end. We have some affected unionization driving the change in income distribution.
    Finally, in terms of at least the after-tax distribution, we have changes in taxes which have, in general, reinforced rising inequality."



    actually to the extent that we have seen a straight division within the same populaces (no movement as you age, you remain poor), it is most closely correlated with single-parent households.

    less than 10 percent of married couples with children are poor as compared with about 35 to 40 percent of single-mother families, and once you start looking at the kids the picture becomes even more stark: If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, nearly three quarters of the nation’s impoverished youth would immediately be lifted out of poverty
    I am sure this plays a small part, but there is no evidence to back up the claim made above. Additionally, it is the GOP that has been opposed to family planning and abortion rights.




    without even looking i know that this is largely because of age. Guess what - if you're raised middle class, when you start out, you're still generally starting out at the bottom of your respective ladder. You're not going to be making daddy and mommy's income straight out of college. yeesh
    Yeah its kind of obvious that you didn't look at the Pew study:

    "The study focused on people who were middle-class teenagers in 1979 and who were between 39 and 44 years old in 2004 and 2006. It defines people as middle-class if they fall between the 30th and 70th percentiles in income distribution, which for a family of four is between $32,900 and $64,000 a year in 2010 dollars.


    People were deemed downwardly mobile if they fell below the 30th percentile in income, if their income rank was 20 or more percentiles below their parents’ rank, or if they earn at least 20 percent less than their parents. The findings do not cover the difficult times that the nation has endured since 2007.

    Pew researchers said the study’s structure did not permit an analysis of whether upward mobility has become more difficult through the years. Nonetheless, some economists point to growing income inequality and widely stagnating wages as evidence that the American Dream is slipping out of reach for many people."
    Last edited by Catawba; 10-14-11 at 12:42 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #76
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Your data was already refuted by Lawrence Katz, economics professor at Harvard. (See above)




    A libertarian economist???

    "A conservative vote for Sen. McCain is a wasted vote. It is wasted because even if he is elected, he does not stand for conservative values and will not promote conservative values. Government will grow, spending will rise, and liberty will diminish.

    But it looks increasingly likely that he won’t be elected, and no one will care about his vote totals if he loses. In contrast, a vote for Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party will be noticed and will have a lasting, positive impact. A vote for Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party will be a vote for liberty and for America’s future."

    CARPE DIEM: Libertarian Candidate Bob Barr Makes His Case

    Where do you find these people?
    You mean people who analyze data, instead of making red herring arguments and go berserk over exaggerated headlines?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #77
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    this is known as the "ad hominem" fallacy; used when the debater is either unwilling or unable to refute the material presented. just sayin.
    Precisely.
    It's a never ending tirade of red herrings and ad hominems.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #78
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It is definitely not irrelevant. Debt is the single most reliable destroyer of individual wealth and vacuum of income. Fully half of Americans say they couldn't scrape up $2,000 in cash in 30 days. I could write you a check today for five times that. Give me 36 hours and I could write you a check for twenty times that (without touching retirement or the kids education) with a few extra thousand left over, just in case. All of it on a "lower" income while raising a family - because I live debt free, and we save.
    You must have a good wife.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    for me, there is. if you assume an average COL, say midwest, i believe between 50 - 125k is middle class. why? 50 - 125 allows for the purchase of a home, a decent car (s), and the ability to feed your family well. it's irrelevant if you've put yourself in deep debt, your income should cover all the necessities plus maybe a vacation.
    So what you did here was make up ****. Got it, I knew it was a bogus poll.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  10. #80
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Just to point out this.
    Incomes are earned per person, households change.

    CARPE DIEM: Income PER EARNER Has Actually Risen For All Groups, And Rose Fastest For The Lowest Quintile
    Lots of flaws in those charts:

    1. Per capita is not typically used by economists to compare income growth because unlike median house household income's per-capita income comparisons are highly distorted by extremes in income on the high end.

    2. The chart only includes lower income brackets.

    3. The chart is intellectually dishonest because it starts at the beginning of an income boom - 1994, and ends just before a deep recession - 2007. The years from 1994 thru 2000 just happen to be the only years of real median income growth in the last 30 years.

    4. It doesn't look to be inflation adjusted.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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