View Poll Results: what do you consider "middle class"?

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Thread: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

  1. #121
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    For future reference, an unlinked source is of no help.
    it gives the source at the bottom. The Office of Management and Budget.

  2. #122
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Which you've yet to prove.
    It was proven here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1059873644


    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/110262-do-you-consider-middle-class-12.html#post1059873710


    The protesters get it, even if you don't.
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  3. #123
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it gives the source at the bottom. The Office of Management and Budget.
    Copyrighted Material - All material posted from copyrighted material MUST contain a link to the original work.
    Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 107 US CODE: Title 17,107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

    Link definition - "A link, or hyperlink, refers to a piece of specially coded text that users can click on to navigate to the webpage or element of a webpage associated with that link's code."
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  4. #124
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Income will not rise at a constant rate.
    I can still extrapolate other sources of unpaid expenses, that were different then than they are now.

    OSHA wasn't created until 1970.
    Further business safety regulations, like the installation of addition safety devices on machinery, as well as further PPE and other safety items can cause a decrease in paid worker compensation.
    That translates to less risk to the employee, less reward for work done.
    That not mentioning the increase in technology, specifically in manufacturing with the introduction of automation and ergonomics, which translates to less workers needed + a better overall work environment.
    This is backwards logic. Safer working conditions and improvements in technology make workers more productive. Economists, politicians, and pundits have been claiming for years that a good way to increase wages is to increase labor productivity. Even when we tease out the capital and technological productivity changes during the last couple of decades, labor productivity has overall increased.
    http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/view/201

    what do YOU consider "middle class"?-nfbbar-jpg
    http://www.bls.gov/lpc/prodybar.htm


    Contrary to popular belief, regulations on business have increased in aggregate, training and keeping employees is more expensive now than before.
    I never argued against this point and didn't even know we were discussing it. Do you want to interject anymore strawmen and irrelevant information into this conversation?

    Edit:

    Just to push this home, the average wage is approximately $20 an hour, but when you add benefits it comes to $28 an hour.
    That's why the income stagnation argument is complete crap.



    Employer Costs for Employee Compensation news release text
    You are obviously going to believe what you want, despite overwhelming evidence that shows that the average laborer is becoming more productive, but wages have been severely lagging and roughly stagnant since 1964. You are unable to fully explain the differences with health insurance and $401k contributions.

    what do YOU consider "middle class"?-ces0500000032_262658_1318706910611-jpg
    Notice: Data not available: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 10-15-11 at 04:32 PM.

  5. #125
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    You have done nothing to counter my argument but you put together a crappy argument using Mother Jones, which is making the same mistakes as you are.
    Effective tax rates ≠ Statutory tax rates.
    This is just something you seem to not understand.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  6. #126
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    This is backwards logic. Safer working conditions and improvements in technology make workers more productive. Economists, politicians, and pundits have been claiming for years that a good way to increase wages is to increase labor productivity. Even when we tease out the capital and technological productivity changes during the last couple of decades, labor productivity has overall increased.
    Wages and compensation stagnating: | State of Working America

    what do YOU consider "middle class"?-nfbbar-jpg
    Productivity Growth by Major Sector, 1947-2010. Bar Chart
    I didn't say that it doesn't.
    I'm saying that, income does not automatically increase at the same consistent rate and that assuming income should of increased to X is meaningless.
    The cost of doing business has increased from some regulation and competition from firms employing cheaper labor, automation, and ergonomics is more widely present




    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    I never argued against this point and didn't even know we were discussing it. Do you want to interject anymore strawmen and irrelevant information into this conversation?
    Just heading you off at the pass.
    Some others here like to make this argument, without any evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    You are obviously going to believe what you want, despite overwhelming evidence that shows that the average laborer is becoming more productive, but wages have been severely lagging and roughly stagnant since 1964. You are unable to fully explain the differences with health insurance and $401k contributions.

    what do YOU consider "middle class"?-ces0500000032_262658_1318706910611-jpg
    Notice: Data not available: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
    Wage growth does not come at a consistent rate.
    The "overwhelming evidence" fails to include increases in government transfer payments and untaxed benefits as compensation.
    It also fails to include the changes in average household sizes.

    The data has been cherry picked, in order to make point of a problem that doesn't exist.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #127
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You have done nothing to counter my argument but you put together a crappy argument using Mother Jones, which is making the same mistakes as you are.
    Effective tax rates ≠ Statutory tax rates.
    This is just something you seem to not understand.
    Congratulations! You've just won an argument against your own strawman! No one said Effective tax rates = Statutory tax rates.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #128
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Congratulations! You've just won an argument against your own strawman! No one said Effective tax rates = Statutory tax rates.
    I'm sorry but your "evidence" that you posted says that, "During the past 30 years, they have been cut at a much faster rate than middle- and low-income taxpayers'."
    I've already shown that to be bullcrap, because effective tax rates are different from statutory tax rates.
    You do not know what you are talking about and using Mother Jones, as "evidence" continues to show that you still don't know what you are talking about.

    They are making the exact same crappy, ignorant argument that you are.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #129
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I didn't say that it doesn't.
    I'm saying that, income does not automatically increase at the same consistent rate and that assuming income should of increased to X is meaningless.
    The cost of doing business has increased from some regulation and competition from firms employing cheaper labor, automation, and ergonomics is more widely present






    Just heading you off at the pass.
    Some others here like to make this argument, without any evidence.



    Wage growth does not come at a consistent rate.
    The "overwhelming evidence" fails to include increases in government transfer payments and untaxed benefits as compensation.
    It also fails to include the changes in average household sizes.

    The data has been cherry picked, in order to make point of a problem that doesn't exist.
    Your whole argument rests on the fallacy that I claimed that wage growth grows at a constant rate per year. It doesn't. However, if you look at the long term trends, wage growth has not kept up with worker productivity.

    We have seen stagnating wages and an erosion of the middle class. We have not seen wages keep up or surpass worker productivity nor have we seen the middle class strengthened over the last three decades.

    The evidence is abundant. I don't even know why this is debatable.
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 10-15-11 at 06:38 PM.

  10. #130
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Your whole argument rests on the fallacy that I claimed that wage growth grows at a constant rate per year. It doesn't. However, if you look at the long term trends, wage growth has not kept up with worker productivity.
    Labor productivity is going to go up as firms implement newer, more efficient technologies, that makes it easier for workers to produce more units per hour and causes the firm to need less workers.
    That doesn't actually translate to workers physically doing more work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    The middle class was an American institution that lasted roughly after WW II to the 1970's. For example, if the 1979 middle income quintile average pre tax household income grew at a rate of 2% year, it would be at $94,189 rather than $64,500 (in 2007).
    http://www.cbo.gov/publications/coll...tax_income.pdf


    The American middle class is a stagnating and decaying institution.
    Was it not you that said this and built your assumption off the average rate of 2% a year?


    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    We have seen stagnating wages and an erosion of the middle class. We have not seen wages keep up or surpass worker productivity nor have we seen the middle class strengthened over the last three decades.

    The evidence is abundant. I don't even know why this is debatable.
    Wages have increased at a rate lower than benefit increases and government transfer payments.
    That is true, but if you only focus on wages and not total house compensation, total household income supplements and benefits, I'd see where you'd come to the conclusion that the middle class is stagnating.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 10-15-11 at 06:48 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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