View Poll Results: what do you consider "middle class"?

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  • 25k - 50k

    3 6.82%
  • 25k - 75k

    5 11.36%
  • 40k - 100k

    14 31.82%
  • 50k - 100k

    8 18.18%
  • 50k - 125k

    14 31.82%
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Thread: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

  1. #111
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    The middle class was an American institution that lasted roughly after WW II to the 1970's. For example, if the 1979 middle income quintile average pre tax household income grew at a rate of 2% year, it would be at $94,189 rather than $64,500 (in 2007).
    http://www.cbo.gov/publications/coll...tax_income.pdf

    The American middle class is a stagnating and decaying institution.
    Compensation, in these past decades, has been shifted towards untaxed benefits like, employer provided medical insurance and 401k contributions.
    Something that is not normally presented in all the wealth disparity/income disparity graphs.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #112
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Prove it.
    I just did, and you agreed with me. Inflation in the 70's was not caused by the tax rates for the wealthy.


    I've shown with data, that those higher taxes were marginal, at best.
    I've shown with data that effective tax rates, which include long term investment income, are substantially lower today than they were 30 years ago.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #113
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not sure how that is different than the last decade?



    glad to help

  4. #114
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    The middle class was an American institution that lasted roughly after WW II to the 1970's. For example, if the 1979 middle income quintile average pre tax household income grew at a rate of 2% year, it would be at $94,189 rather than $64,500 (in 2007).
    http://www.cbo.gov/publications/coll...tax_income.pdf

    The American middle class is a stagnating and decaying institution.
    people keep saying so, but over in the thread where we've been trying to deny it, we've increasingly come to the conclusion that you really can't.

  5. #115
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I just did, and you agreed with me. Inflation in the 70's was not caused by the tax rates for the wealthy.
    You certainly have 0 proof that our current economic mess is caused by low tax rates for the wealthy.
    Economic messes have a multitude of variables.
    It's a gigantic mathematics equation, that can't be summed up with, "cuz wealthy peoples are richer."


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I've shown with data that effective tax rates, which include long term investment income, are substantially lower today than they were 30 years ago.
    So what, the total effective tax rates, which includes investment income in the 1970s were marginally higher.
    The fact is that an 8% drop in total taxes paid by the top .1% isn't going to cause the bottom 50% to get poorer.

    It's complete baloney built on conspiracy theory.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  6. #116
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post


    glad to help
    For future reference, an unlinked source is of no help.


    The total costs


    Looking only at the past in calculating the costs of 9/11 and not the future costs of the ongoing conflicts, especially in terms of veteran support and benefits, is a myopic view. Three years ago, Stiglitz estimated the wars' final costs at $3 trillion to $5 trillion. Last week, he wrote that latter estimate was probably substantially underestimated.



    "With almost 50% of returning troops eligible to receive some level of disability payment, and more than 600,000 treated so far in veterans medical facilities, we now estimate that future disability payments and health care costs" will total $600 billion to $900 billion, he wrote. "But the social costs reflected in veteran suicides (which have topped 18 per day in recent years) and family breakups are incalculable."



    Stiglitz's estimates were recently corroborated by a study conducted by the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University, which concluded the total cost of the two wars to date at $3.2 trillion to $4 trillion, including future veteran benefits. However, it didn't include an estimated half trillion dollars in additional war spending over the next few years, or another $1 trillion in interest payments on the increase in the national debt.

    Cost of 9/11 and its aftermath: $5 trillion- MSN Money
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Compensation, in these past decades, has been shifted towards untaxed benefits like, employer provided medical insurance and 401k contributions.
    Something that is not normally presented in all the wealth disparity/income disparity graphs.
    You are claiming that the $30k difference is made up in with insurance and $401k contributions?

    Annual insurance premiums for families rose to $15,073 on average in 2011, up from an average of $13,770 last year and more than twice the cost of a decade ago, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research & Educational Trust.
    Cost of employer-provided health insurance up 9% in 2011 - Los Angeles Times

    Assume that employers pick up 80%, that is $12,000 of the $30k. Now, you claim that 401k contributions make up the other 18K

    The average total contribution rate was 10 percent of salary for employees in plans offering an employer contribution, compared with 7.4 percent for those in plans not offering an employer contribution.
    Average 401(k) Contribution: 6.8%

    The average employer contribution is 2.6%. Take the middle income quintile average pre tax household income of $64,500 and multiply it by 0.026 and you get $1,677. You still have to explain over a $16k difference.

  8. #118
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You certainly have 0 proof that our current economic mess is caused by low tax rates for the wealthy.

    Strawman alert ~ I never claimed that our current economic mess was caused by tax rates. I said the US wealth disparity growth over the last 30 years is due to 30 years of tax/regulation cuts for the wealthiest, trickle down economics.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #119
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    You are claiming that the $30k difference is made up in with insurance and $401k contributions?

    Annual insurance premiums for families rose to $15,073 on average in 2011, up from an average of $13,770 last year and more than twice the cost of a decade ago, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research & Educational Trust.
    Cost of employer-provided health insurance up 9% in 2011 - Los Angeles Times

    Assume that employers pick up 80%, that is $12,000 of the $30k. Now, you claim that 401k contributions make up the other 18K

    The average total contribution rate was 10 percent of salary for employees in plans offering an employer contribution, compared with 7.4 percent for those in plans not offering an employer contribution.
    Average 401(k) Contribution: 6.8%

    The average employer contribution is 2.6%. Take the middle income quintile average pre tax household income of $64,500 and multiply it by 0.026 and you get $1,677. You still have to explain over a $16k difference.
    Income will not rise at a constant rate.
    I can still extrapolate other sources of unpaid expenses, that were different then than they are now.

    OSHA wasn't created until 1970.
    Further business safety regulations, like the installation of addition safety devices on machinery, as well as further PPE and other safety items can cause a decrease in paid worker compensation.
    That translates to less risk to the employee, less reward for work done.
    That not mentioning the increase in technology, specifically in manufacturing with the introduction of automation and ergonomics, which translates to less workers needed + a better overall work environment.

    Contrary to popular belief, regulations on business have increased in aggregate, training and keeping employees is more expensive now than before.

    Edit:

    Just to push this home, the average wage is approximately $20 an hour, but when you add benefits it comes to $28 an hour.
    That's why the income stagnation argument is complete crap.

    Private industry employers spent an average of $28.13 per hour worked for employee compensation
    in June 2011, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Wages and salaries averaged
    $19.81 per hour worked and accounted for 70.4 percent of these costs, while benefits averaged $8.32
    and accounted for the remaining 29.6 percent. Total compensation costs for state and local government
    workers averaged $40.40 per hour worked in June 2011. Total compensation costs for civilian workers,
    which include private industry and state and local government workers, averaged $29.98 per hour worked
    in June 2011.
    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.nr0.htm
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 10-15-11 at 07:57 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #120
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Strawman alert ~ I never claimed that our current economic mess was caused by tax rates. I said the US wealth disparity growth over the last 30 years is due to 30 years of tax/regulation cuts for the wealthiest, trickle down economics.
    Which you've yet to prove.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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