View Poll Results: what do you consider "middle class"?

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Thread: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

  1. #101
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    John McCain.
    Or Mitt Romney...
    A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul

  2. #102
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Taxes are drastically lowered.
    Not true at all.
    Statutory tax rates are drastically lower, but effective tax rates are modestly lower.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #103
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Taxes are drastically lowered.
    You mean since we put our military spending on the credit card for the last 30 years? Doesn't that debt have to be paid back?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #104
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not true at all.
    Statutory tax rates are drastically lower, but effective tax rates are modestly lower.
    Well I can't find any data about effective tax rates prior to the 1970s. I am not disagreeing but simply trying to verify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You mean since we put our military spending on the credit card for the last 30 years? Doesn't that debt have to be paid back?
    Indeed it does.
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    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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  5. #105
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Well I can't find any data about effective tax rates prior to the 1970s. I am not disagreeing but simply trying to verify.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    A predecessor Minimum Tax was enacted by the Tax Reform Act of 1969[14] and went into effect in 1970. Treasury Secretary Joseph Barr prompted the enactment action with an announcement that 155 high-income households had not paid a dime of federal income taxes.[15] The households had taken advantage of so many tax benefits and deductions that reduced their tax liabilities to zero.[16] Congress responded by creating an add-on tax on high-income households, equal to 10% of the sum of tax preferences in excess of $30,000 plus the taxpayer’s regular tax liability.[SUP][17]
    Alternative Minimum Tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    What that means is that during that time period, there were wealth people not paying any taxes at all.
    Even when the statutory tax rates were higher than 50%.

    So the explanation that higher tax rates made everything more equal is bunk.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #106
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Of course but then you claimed that,"hat we had much higher tax rates for the wealthy and we had no economic cataclysm."
    Right, we had no economic cataclysm attributable to the higher taxes for the wealthy.



    The effective tax rates before Reagan was even elected were marginally higher than they are today.
    The total effective tax rate for the top 10% was 29.6 as opposed to 26.7 in 2007.

    The biggest spread was 37% in 1979 compared to 29.5 in 2007, for the top 1%.

    You think this is what caused the problem, seriously?
    Oh and before you go off on my libertarian source, it's a liberal think tank.

    Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates for All Households
    "But the superrich don't pay as much as they used to—and thanks to a combination of tax cuts and preferential tax policies, their tax obligations can be less demanding than the so-called little people's. In fact, the very wealthiest Americans' tax burden has been steadily dropping for years, even as they've enjoyed astounding income growth not seen by the vast majority of Americans."

    "Tax rates for the wealthy have fallen substantially since they peaked in the 1940s. During the past 30 years, they have been cut at a much faster rate than middle- and low-income taxpayers'."

    "Just how much of a windfall are tax cuts for the wealthy? The extension of the Bush tax cuts passed last year will provide $146,000 in annual tax savings, on average, to each of the wealthiest 0.1% of Americans."


    "The superrich get an additional boost from relatively low tax rates on capital gains. Income from long-term investments, which makes up a larger portion of wealthier taxpayers' incomes than middle- and low-income taxpayers', is taxed at lower rates than wages."

    Only Little People Pay Taxes | Mother Jones


    Nope, I mean that it's all the fault of Republicans and Reaganomics, all the fault of rich people, all the fault of the top 1%.
    You know, all your ridiculous, unfounded, claims.
    We have had 30 years to document the failure of trickle down economics. It is hardly an unfounded claim.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #107
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You mean since we put our military spending on the credit card for the last 30 years? Doesn't that debt have to be paid back?
    Military spending in the 1940's was higher, than it is now and was on credit.

    U.S. expenditures for defense and education, 1940-2009
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #108
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    The middle class was an American institution that lasted roughly after WW II to the 1970's. For example, if the 1979 middle income quintile average pre tax household income grew at a rate of 2% year, it would be at $94,189 rather than $64,500 (in 2007).
    http://www.cbo.gov/publications/coll...tax_income.pdf

    The American middle class is a stagnating and decaying institution.

  9. #109
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Right, we had no economic cataclysm attributable to the higher taxes for the wealthy.
    Prove it.
    I've shown with data, that those higher taxes were marginal, at best.



    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "But the superrich don't pay as much as they used to—and thanks to a combination of tax cuts and preferential tax policies, their tax obligations can be less demanding than the so-called little people's. In fact, the very wealthiest Americans' tax burden has been steadily dropping for years, even as they've enjoyed astounding income growth not seen by the vast majority of Americans."

    "Tax rates for the wealthy have fallen substantially since they peaked in the 1940s. During the past 30 years, they have been cut at a much faster rate than middle- and low-income taxpayers'."

    "Just how much of a windfall are tax cuts for the wealthy? The extension of the Bush tax cuts passed last year will provide $146,000 in annual tax savings, on average, to each of the wealthiest 0.1% of Americans."


    "The superrich get an additional boost from relatively low tax rates on capital gains. Income from long-term investments, which makes up a larger portion of wealthier taxpayers' incomes than middle- and low-income taxpayers', is taxed at lower rates than wages."

    Only Little People Pay Taxes | Mother Jones
    Effective tax rates are marginally lower, as shown by the data I presented, from a liberal leaning source.
    Mother Jones, is making the same fail argument that you are, conflating statutory tax rates as effective tax rates.

    The link I provided complete disproves Mother Jones claims by showing that, the lowest quintile have had their tax rates cut in half, the second has been reduced by 1/3rd, the middle by 1/4th and the 4th quintile by nearly 1/4th.
    Only the highest quintile had a tax reduction of less than 1/4th, the lowest effective tax reduction of all quintiles.

    So sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We have had 30 years to document the failure of trickle down economics. It is hardly an unfounded claim.
    Taxes were being cut before Trickle down economics became the popular theory.
    And you once again can't come to terms that effective tax rates are in total, modestly lower for the rich than you originally claimed.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #110
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    Re: what do YOU consider "middle class"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Military spending in the 1940's was higher, than it is now and was on credit.

    U.S. expenditures for defense and education, 1940-2009
    The true cost of the war on terror is higher than any in our history:

    "Indeed, when Linda Bilmes and I calculated America’s war costs three years ago, the conservative tally was $3-5 trillion. Since then, the costs have mounted further. With almost 50% of returning troops eligible to receive some level of disability payment, and more than 600,000 treated so far in veterans’ medical facilities, we now estimate that future disability payments and health-care costs will total $600-900 billion. But the social costs, reflected in veteran suicides (which have topped 18 per day in recent years) and family breakups, are incalculable."
    The Price of 9/11 - Joseph E. Stiglitz - Project Syndicate
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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