View Poll Results: Who are the OWS protestors?

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  • Evil Anticapitlists bent on the destruction of America

    37 30.08%
  • A confused group of people who don't know what they want

    47 38.21%
  • Other

    26 21.14%
  • Rootabega

    7 5.69%
  • Jazz hands!!!!

    6 4.88%
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Thread: Who are the OWS protestors?

  1. #41
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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I'll bet if the TP and the OWS folks sat down and discussed it, they would actually find some common ground. They are both pissed off at Wall St. and their never-ending abuses...paid for with tax-dollars, while the American people get screwed.
    And that's what the machine is afraid of.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    And that's what the machine is afraid of.
    once the Tea Partyiers understand that the filthy rich are paying a much lower tax-rate on their capital gains than regular folks are paying on income, the TP will be on our side.

  3. #43
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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Wait, so corporations are legally participating in government (you demonize as bribing), and this somehow made all those people buy homes they couldn't afford, and made all those lenders loosen their standards? What!?

    Confused individuals indeed.
    I posted plenty of information in the other thread to make your continued use of this meme dishonest.

    80% of mortgage fraud, identified as a significant issue in 2004 by the FBI, was on the part of LENDERS.

    Did people buy more house than they could afford?

    Some did, yes.

    Were many convinced that they actually COULD afford it by mortgage companies?

    Some clearly were.

    Were some who COULD have been successful defeated by the collapse of the market itself?

    Certainly. Had their homes continued to increse in value AND the mortgage market remained stable, then indeed some of those marginal customers could have worked and sacrificed to make those payments on time and pay all their other bills on time, then indeed they could have refinanced in a few years before the loan ballooned or adjusted. Didn't work out that way.

    Use of the "its all those lazy irresponsible poor people who caused the housing crash" meme is assininely dishonest.

    It was playing games with good and "bad" mortgages and the ratings of those mortgages that caused the meltdown.

    Abuse of an abuseable system, yes indeed.

    And who paid for all those politicians campaigns again?

    And where did all Bush's (and in some cases now,Obama's) finance gurus work before (and after) they worked for him again?

    You actually write well and make many good points, but you're losing credibility with me.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  4. #44
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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Other:
    Not quite "a confused group of people who don't know what they want". More like "a confused group of people who don't know how to get what they want".

    It's interesting to me that people are being encouraged to picket producers in our economy. I mean, picketing the government for not governing the way you think it should makes sense. Picketing a company for producing something harmful makes sense. But, picketing capitalism sounds like the middle east reversed. Instead of saying "we want freedom from the government" the occupiers are saying "we want our government to take your money and give it to us". That's bizarre.

    The government has restricted economical growth. They can loosen the restrictions and growth will occur. Yes, it will require work and time, and yes, your mom and dad probably had it easier. But their mom and dad worked their butts off.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  5. #45
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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I beg to differ. What you are calling 'responsible capitalism" was actually a system that operated with very little outside competitive pressures. Our economy ruled the roost, and our dog still wagged its own tail. In business, this is known as "sales fixes everything". But we have lost our competitive edge for a variety of reasons, none of which are remedied by redistribution and more taxes, btw, and also are running out of borrowed money by which we could pretend we had no problem ! We can no longer "prop it up", which is a good part of the current mess ! We must mend the foundation ! "Balance of incomes ..... so that money is able to properly flow" ... please explain this babble !We are where we are because government interjected itself too much is trying to balance results, rather than increase opportunity and enable reward. Our two biggest drains are the semi-ponzi schemes of Social Security and Medicare, and now Obamacare. Liberal nanny-state "balance", underfunded-from-the-beginning-wealth-redistribution from tomorrow's generation back to todays ! They dwarf all wars in cost. All bailouts. All everything. Show us "winner take all" economics ! What we have is liberal-take-all-your-money politics ! Please, no more of the useless platitudes. Roadmap out at least half an explanation of what and how. Thanks.
    Ok, on my phone so my response won't be great, but I have a moment to spare while waiting for a doctors appointmrnt. In the middle of the last century we were a prosperous nation, primarily because the middle class could stand on its own two feet. However since the late 70s, middle class incomes have been shrinking and people have become poorer, for a few decades, we propped up their way of life with deb(, but that was an illusion that has now burst. So as a nation we are losing ourselves financially, unless the upper classes can keep up the same consumption rates, but that isn't happening. Thus we lose demand and jobs as a result.In the this will hurt everyone, rich or poor. I am sorry if common sense and simple fact is somerthing you see as confusing babble, but here it is, take it or leave it.

  6. #46
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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I don't get the impression that most the occupiers think this way either.
    When I see signs like "Jump! You ****ers!" and "Hungry? Eat a Banker" and "Be nervous. Be very nervous. Marie Antoinette wasn't." that leads me to believe there is a great deal of hostility toward corporations and the rich capitalists that have profited most from the system.

    I have heard rhetoric from protesters who decry capitalism and profits and corporations in general. I hope you're right. I hope this isn't a majority of the Occupiers who are anti-capitalist. I fear that it is a majority, and that they're trying very hard to keep their anti-capitalism to themselves, for fear of alienating the rest of America they hope to win over to their side. Time will tell.
    Be in general virtuous, and you will be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    once the Tea Partyiers understand that the filthy rich are paying a much lower tax-rate on their capital gains than regular folks are paying on income, the TP will be on our side.
    Is this some secret ? Only the most uninformed do not know that we have seperate tax rates for wage income, capital gains, inheritence, etc. Everyone who has ever owned a home will have some knowledge of taxes other-than-wages. I find your assumption therefore to be without merit.

    The top 1% of wage earners already pay an exhorbitantly higher progressive rate on their wage income. In fact, when looking at things, in income taxes paid, all the top pays a much higher portion of income taxes than they earn as a portion of all total income earned.

    For instance, the top 1% makes 20% of all wages, and pays 38% of all wage taxes.
    The top 5% earn less than 35% of all wages, but pay over 57% of all the wage taxes !

    Granted, that is only taxes on wage income, but it is already hugely progressive. The argument seems to be that it should be even more progressive, so as to be "more fair".

    But, of course, we have capital gains "Investment income". Taxed at approximately 15%, or the rate at which wage income is already taxed for the top 25% of wage earners. So even this income can be seen as progressively taxed. in that it is taxed at a higher rate than over 70% (estimate from chart) of Americans pay on their regular wages ! Admittedly, capital gains are not taxed for FICA etc.

    But according to some, this is not enough. They want investment income taxed more. They apparently want business income taxed more as well, even though we already have the second highest corporate tax rates in the developed world.

    That corporate money and investment money can go other places with ease folks. Its one great way to lose even more jobs to other countries. You want to raise taxes on investment even more (note that money paid on investments has usually been taxed as corporate profits already), then you will get less investment. It will go elsewhere.

    There is no future in mooching unless one is a politician who benefits from making folks wards of the state.

    Tell us what is fair libs. And please tell us why. Thanks.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 10-11-11 at 03:26 PM.

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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sensibility View Post
    When I see signs like "Jump! You ****ers!" and "Hungry? Eat a Banker" and "Be nervous. Be very nervous. Marie Antoinette wasn't." that leads me to believe there is a great deal of hostility toward corporations and the rich capitalists that have profited most from the system.

    I have heard rhetoric from protesters who decry capitalism and profits and corporations in general. I hope you're right. I hope this isn't a majority of the Occupiers who are anti-capitalist. I fear that it is a majority, and that they're trying very hard to keep their anti-capitalism to themselves, for fear of alienating the rest of America they hope to win over to their side. Time will tell.
    I think anti-greed is being interpreted as anti-capitalism. I don't think anyone would deny that there are anti-capitalists in the mix. Any movement critical of the symbols of capitalism will undoubtedly attract them. However, most the grievances expressed by the more organized aspects of OWS including the offshoots around the country are very clearly anti-what they perceive as abuse of corporate power, rather than anti-capitalism.

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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ok, on my phone so my response won't be great, but I have a moment to spare while waiting for a doctors appointmrnt. In the middle of the last century we were a prosperous nation, primarily because the middle class could stand on its own two feet. However since the late 70s, middle class incomes have been shrinking and people have become poorer, for a few decades, we propped up their way of life with deb(, but that was an illusion that has now burst. So as a nation we are losing ourselves financially, unless the upper classes can keep up the same consumption rates, but that isn't happening. Thus we lose demand and jobs as a result.In the this will hurt everyone, rich or poor. I am sorry if common sense and simple fact is somerthing you see as confusing babble, but here it is, take it or leave it.
    I appreciate the phone effort, but your analysis is fundamentally flawed, while my common sense and appreciation for simple fact is steller, thank you

    It is not the decreasing consumption rates of the upper earners that has done us in. Not in the least. That is also not what has changed with regard to consumption. Its that what is being bought is paying wages of folks not in America. From energy to cars to toys. That is what has changed from the times you site. We can add the debt issues to that, or more importantly, that we have subsidized largesse to the point where we are overburdened with both largesse and debt now. We cannot tax-away or redistribute-away these fundamental problems. To attempt so would be to just keep kicking the can. And the cliff truly is right there.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 10-11-11 at 03:09 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: Who are the OWS protestors?

    Other: They are disenfranchised citizens who believe that the tax structure needs to be changed and the level of oversight / transparency in both financial institutions / transactions and corporations needs to be raised.

    Some also believe that the healthcare system needs to be overhauled to prevent the pharmaceutical, health insurance and health product and services industries from making excessive profits. Most of these favor a public option for healthcare insurance as well as keeping Medicare public rather than privatizing - understandable since Medicare - Part D was such a huge mistake.

    Some also believe that the US's spending on defense is far too high and that the US needs to stop being the world's nanny and take care of the needs at home. Some of the programs they cite as being underfunded are education, infrastructure maintenance, infrastructure development, mass transit and improvements to data information delivery.
    I don't want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was wedding between the religious fundamentalists and political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it. ~ Billy Graham in Parade magazine February 1, 1981.

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