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The Duty of Corporations

Should the duty by re-examined?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 42.9%
  • No

    Votes: 16 57.1%

  • Total voters
    28
That violates the nature of a publicly held corporation.
He's holding multiple positions with conflicting duties.

There's nothing inherently unethical about someone serving as a CEO, chairman, and a large shareholder all at the same time. On a smaller scale, sole proprietors essentially do this all the time.

If he has control over, the board of directors, the CEO/presidency and has the largest amount of shares, the conflict of interest can compromise his fiduciary duty to the shareholders.
He has a legal obligation to shareholders, which they can sue to protect.

As far as I'm concerned the corporation's only legal obligations to its shareholders should be whatever they say they are. So if the CEO wants to tell the shareholders "I promise to maximize your profits," that's fine. If the CEO wants to tell the shareholders "I promise to maximize value to the consumers and employees, and give you the leftover profits," that's fine too. If they're unhappy they can take their money elsewhere or replace the CEO.

Edit: It's not his business, he has no right to direct it towards his personal wants, ignoring the other investors.

I disagree. If I owned a company and offered you a 1% stake in it (with the understanding that I'd still be making all decisions about where the company's money goes, since I control 99% of the stock), what are my obligations to you? We agreed that I'd be making all the decisions, so if I want to give the profits to charity instead of paying dividends to both of us, that's not a breach of contract as far as I'm concerned. Dissatisfaction with the way a company is managed is simply a risk that shareholders take with ANY investment.

And if he decided to not let that come up for a vote?

Most corporate charters have regular elections for the Board of Directors (not sure if it's legally required), so chances are he couldn't have simply prevented a vote. And if they didn't have elections, well, then the dissatisfied shareholders can sell their shares.

He also had significant control of the Board.
That's the problem.

Any major shareholder has significant control over the Board. That isn't inherently a problem. All else being equal, I'd much rather invest in a company where the CEO owned 51% of the stock (and therefore had significant control over the Board), than a company where the CEO owned 1% of the stock.
 
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There's nothing inherently unethical about someone serving as a CEO, chairman, and a large shareholder all at the same time. On a smaller scale, sole proprietors essentially do this all the time.

Sole proprietor ≠ publicly held corporation

A sole proprietor can direct all his profits to whomever he wants, a publicly traded corporation has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders.

As far as I'm concerned the corporation's only legal obligations to its shareholders should be whatever they say they are. So if the CEO wants to tell the shareholders "I promise to maximize your profits," that's fine. If the CEO wants to tell the shareholders "I promise to maximize value to the consumers and employees, and give you the leftover profits," that's fine too. If they're unhappy they can take their money elsewhere or replace the CEO.

You missed the part where the other shareholders had no say and that the board would not oppose Ford.
Further Ford and his son breached their ethical duty and started a competing "Ford and Son" company, in which they took all the best employees, in order to gain total control over the shares.

He wanted public financing through shares but also wanted total control.
That is unethical.

I disagree. If I owned a company and offered you a 10% stake in it (with the understanding that I'd still be making all decisions about where the company's money goes, since I control 90% of the stock), what are my obligations to you? We agreed that I'd be making all the decisions, so if I want to give the profits to charity instead of paying dividends to both of us, that's not a breach of contract as far as I'm concerned. Dissatisfaction with the way a company is managed is simply a risk that shareholders take with ANY investment.

This isn't a limited partnership or any other type of partnership, but more of a trust.
The board are the trustees for the shareholders.
It is their job to make sure that the CEO/President is doing his job at managing the company, in order to maximize value for the shareholders.

Most corporate charters have regular elections for the Board of Directors (not sure if it's legally required), so chances are he couldn't have simply prevented a vote. And if they didn't have elections, well, then the dissatisfied shareholders can sell their shares.

Sorry but what you're putting up here is that, there shouldn't be legal a duty to anyone and that's it's all up for grabs.
That's more of an anarchist mantra, than one that wants a legal system to prevent fraud.

Any major shareholder has significant control over the Board. That isn't inherently a problem. All else being equal, I'd much rather invest in a company where the CEO owned 51% of the stock, than a company where the CEO owned 1% of the stock.

The CEO is not supposed to control the board, otherwise there are no checks in place to prevent him/her from doing stupid ****.
Just like Congress should not be controlled by the President.
 
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Sole proprietor ≠ publicly held corporation

A sole proprietor can direct all his profits to whomever he wants, a publicly traded corporation has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders.

That's a distinction without a difference as far as I'm concerned. If I run my own corporation and control 100% of the shares, I think we would both agree that I can run it however I please. But if I control only 99.9% of the shares, I have to focus on profit maximization? I essentially control just as much of the company as I did before, and should retain 99.9% of the power over it.

You missed the part where the other shareholders had no say and that the board would not oppose Ford.

The shareholders could replace the Board with people who would oppose Ford, if they had a majority ownership. If they had no say because they didn't control a majority of the company, then that's no different than any other sour grapes from an election. If the majority of shareholders elect certain people to the Board, that's just the way it is...it doesn't matter whether the "majority of shareholders" is 1 person or 100,000 people.

Further Ford and his son breached their ethical duty and started a competing "Ford and Son" company, in which they took all the best employees, in order to gain total control over the shares.

That's a separate matter, and sounds like it might indeed be unethical. Although I don't know all the details of it.

He wanted public financing through shares but also wanted total control.

As long as he controlled a majority of the shares, he got to make a majority of the votes for the Board of Directors. If he was unwilling to relinquish a majority of the shares, any of the minority shareholders who had a problem with it were free to sell their stock at any time.

This isn't a limited partnership or any other type of partnership, but more of a trust.
The board are the trustees for the shareholders.
It is their job to make sure that the CEO/President is doing his job at managing the company, in order to maximize value for the shareholders.

While that is the most common arrangement, I disagree that it is necessarily the ONLY arrangement. If the shareholders want to elect people who promise that their sole duty will be to maximize value, so be it. If the shareholders want to elect people who promise something else (e.g. community responsibility, or taking care of employees, or lower prices for consumers), so be it. It really doesn't affect me how the owners of a business decide that the business' money should be spent. If I'm also an owner who disagrees with the will of the majority, I can sell my stock to someone else.

Sorry but what you're putting up here is that, there shouldn't be legal a duty to anyone and that's it's all up for grabs.
That's more of an anarchist mantra, than one that wants a legal system to prevent fraud.

Not at all. Any contracts should be enforced. I just question why there should be an implied contract that the company will always maximize shareholder profits. As far as I'm concerned, that's up to the shareholders (who elect the Board, which appoints the CEO) to decide for themselves.

The CEO is not supposed to control the board, otherwise there are no checks in place to prevent him/her from doing stupid ****.

The only way that a CEO can control the Board is if he controls a majority of the shares in the company (or at least close to a majority). And if that's the case, then I see no reason that there SHOULD be any checks in place to prevent him/her from doing stupid ****. Bad management is simply a risk that investors take, and if the majority of shareholders appoint bad management (or ARE the bad management themselves) then that's their own fault.

Just like Congress should not be controlled by the President.

Governments are not like corporations, in that you CHOSE to invest in the corporation and are free to sell your shares whenever you like. And in the sense that everyone's vote is (theoretically) equal in government, whereas your vote in a corporation is proportionate to your investment in it.
 
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That's a distinction without a difference as far as I'm concerned. If I run my own corporation and control 100% of the shares, I think we would both agree that I can run it however I please. But if I control only 99.9% of the shares, I have to focus on profit maximization? I essentially control just as much of the company as I did before, and should retain 99.9% of the power over it.

If you take on 1 additional investor, you are contract bound to that person, no matter if they have a .1% ownership or not.


The shareholders could replace the Board with people who would oppose Ford, if they had a majority ownership. If they had no say because they didn't control a majority of the company, then that's no different than any other sour grapes from an election. If the majority of shareholders elect certain people to the Board, that's just the way it is...it doesn't matter whether the "majority of shareholders" is 1 person or 100,000 people.

From my readings, it seems that the board was appointed by the CEO, rather than the other way around.

That's a separate matter, and sounds like it might indeed be unethical. Although I don't know all the details of it.

It's in the wiki link, in the OP.

As long as he controlled a majority of the shares, he got to make a majority of the votes for the Board of Directors. If he was unwilling to relinquish a majority of the shares, any of the minority shareholders who had a problem with it were free to sell their stock at any time.

Yes but if he purposefully devalues the investments of others, that can constitute breach of contract.


While that is the most common arrangement, I disagree that it is necessarily the ONLY arrangement. If the shareholders want to elect people who promise that their sole duty will be to maximize value, so be it. If the shareholders want to elect people who promise something else (e.g. community responsibility, or taking care of employees, or lower prices for consumers), so be it. It really doesn't affect me how the owners of a business decide that the business' money should be spent. If I'm also an owner who disagrees with the will of the majority, I can sell my stock to someone else.

It's not the only arrangement, but in this case, it was the primary arrangement, until ford decided he changed his mind, which alters the contract without the consent of the other investors.
He isn't allowed to change the entire relationship on a whim, no matter his majority shareholder status.

Not at all. Any contracts should be enforced. I just question why there should be an implied contract that the company will always maximize shareholder profits. As far as I'm concerned, that's up to the shareholders (who elect the Board, which appoints the CEO) to decide for themselves.

If they wish to change it, it should be done through a process, instead of one person deciding for all.
It defeats the purpose of having a publicly traded company.

The only way that a CEO can control the Board is if he controls a majority of the shares in the company (or at least close to a majority). And if that's the case, then I see no reason that their SHOULD be any checks in place to prevent him/her from doing stupid ****. Bad management is simply a risk that investors take, and if the majority of shareholders appoint bad management (or ARE the bad management themselves) then that's their own fault.

Bad management is one thing, arbitrarily altering the contract between the business and other investors for personal desires, is quite another.
A company's management are not supposed to use corporate assets, which are owned in commons with other shareholders, for personal en devours.
That's illegal at times and highly unethical.

Governments are not like corporations, in that you CHOSE to invest in the corporation and are free to sell your shares whenever you like. And in the sense that everyone's vote is (theoretically) equal in government, whereas your vote in a corporation is proportionate to your investment in it.

They aren't like corporations, entirely.
You are free to choose, but the government exists to prevent/punish instances of fraud and unethical behavior by people who solicited funds from you.
There are some ground rules everyone must follow.
 
I see that you don't own stocks. Stock owners do not have direct vote over who their CEO is.

I never said that they did. Investors do have ways of redressing grievances though.
 
Right now it is understood that corporations have a duty to their shareholders, but not to their employees, consumers, or the remainder of the public (although they of course have a duty to comply with the law, which includes many regulations designed to protect employees/consumers/third parties).

In light of the growing gap between the wealthy and the rest of America, do you think that this idea needs to be re-examined?
No, I don't. I think corporations should decide who their duty is to. Some think it's only to their shareholder, others take a more consumer based approach and others go on to incorporate their personal set of ethics. It should be up to them what they want to do.

As Mega pointed out earlier, the problem is when they affect policy at the expense of others. So the only thing that should really be examined in my mind is the relationship between corporations and government, which I believe is currently far beyond inappropriate.

Corporations need to form their own goals by which they will live and die. That life and death should be separate from government.
 
No, I don't. I think corporations should decide who their duty is to. Some think it's only to their shareholder, others take a more consumer based approach and others go on to incorporate their personal set of ethics. It should be up to them what they want to do.

As Mega pointed out earlier, the problem is when they affect policy at the expense of others. So the only thing that should really be examined in my mind is the relationship between corporations and government, which I believe is currently far beyond inappropriate.

Corporations need to form their own goals by which they will live and die. That life and death should be separate from government.

That's definitely appropriate and I like this.

A rational, unmoronic post.
 
They are not in business to react to miscreants. They are in busines to make money.

definition of MISCREANTS: Americans who want a just and sustainable society for all
 
..which is why corporate personhood needs to be eliminated.

Eliminate corporate personhood, and most of these problems disappear. :shrug:

This is never going to happen. When a CEO's company has done something illegal, if the CEO condoned it, knew or should have known about it, he's in jail. If a guy on the line of a pharmaceutical packaging company poisons medicine and people die, you would hold the CEO responsible? This, of course, assuming he couldn't have known about it. The corporation might be sued out of existence....the CEO might be included in the lawsuit...but unless they could prove he knew, or should have known, he's free and clear. As it should be.
 
Corporations aren't people. They don't have duties. They're not capable of performing duties. They are, at best, tools for creating money for their owners and employees; they're incapable of doing anything else and it is foolish to expect them to.

Nor do they pay taxes. they are merely a tool or a conduit PEOPLE use to create wealth etc. That's why I find moronic those who claim that double taxation on dividends is proper because they claim that when the corporation "makes the money" that is one transaction and when the shareholders are "paid" that is another.
 
from Khrazy in the OP



100% absolutely positively without a doubt.

As long as the only imperative for a corporation is to make money, there will always be societal problems and fall out. We need new rules for new times and a new paradigm that takes in much more than simple greed fo a corporation or its stockholders.

The societal problems being those who don't have stock in a corporation are envious of those who do or think that they have a right to some of the profits merely because they exist within a certain proximity of that corporation?
 
The societal problems being those who don't have stock in a corporation are envious of those who do or think that they have a right to some of the profits merely because they exist within a certain proximity of that corporation?

NO - you have that 100% totally and completely wrong.

Te societal problems being that corporate greed as the sole motivator for a companies decisions too often ends up screwing workers, consumers, taxpayers and the larger society as a whole. Such a society is not a sustainable one with a future in a democratic republic.

That's why I find moronic those who claim that double taxation on dividends is proper because they claim that when the corporation "makes the money" that is one transaction and when the shareholders are "paid" that is another.

As an attorney, you are familiar with the concept that a corporation is a legal person. Thus, they pay taxes. Individual citizens are also persons. Thus, they pay taxes also. If you find that "moronic" your argument is with the morons on the Supreme Court who made those rulings.
 
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NO - you have that 100% totally and completely wrong.

Te societal problems being that corporate greed as the sole motivator for a companies decisions too often ends up screwing workers, consumers, taxpayers and the larger society as a whole. Such a society is not a sustainable one with a future in a democratic republic.

what you call greed is not relevant. Unions are greedy. And people are NOT Screwed by a corporation making money for its shareholders

What is not sustainable is a society where we create more and more people who think that they are entitled to the wealth of others merely because they live in the same country

if a company screws the wrong people it fails its duty to make the most money legally possible for its shareholders

if it treats its workers poorly that is going to affect the bottom line

its self policing in the long run
 
what you call greed is not relevant. Unions are greedy. And people are NOT Screwed by a corporation making money for its shareholders

What is not sustainable is a society where we create more and more people who think that they are entitled to the wealth of others merely because they live in the same country

if a company screws the wrong people it fails its duty to make the most money legally possible for its shareholders

if it treats its workers poorly that is going to affect the bottom line

its self policing in the long run

That sort of post is an excellent example of the complete and total disconnect between the reality that the vast majority of American workers live in and the privileged lot of the upper 5%. Such an attitude was the personification of the Robber Barons in the Gilded Age and is no doubt pushed today by right wing groups like ALEC and the CATO Institute but is a recipe for the end of America as the shining star in the universe of nations.
 
That sort of post is an excellent example of the complete and total disconnect between the reality that the vast majority of American workers live in and the privileged lot of the upper 5%. Such an attitude was the personification of the Robber Barons in the Gilded Age and is no doubt pushed today by right wing groups like ALEC and the CATO Institute but is a recipe for the end of America as the shining star in the universe of nations.

Yawn-we get the fact that union apologists think unions ought to have far more money. BFD. calling people who invest wisely "robber barons" is hyperbolic bunk.

The end of America is hastened by the socialist mindset that attacks winners and subsidizes LOSERS
 
That sort of post is an excellent example of the complete and total disconnect between the reality that the vast majority of American workers live in and the privileged lot of the upper 5%.
Satisfied employees are more productive which leads to growth and is a well known modern management paradigm. Abuses do exist but are usually in smaller companies that do not know, care, or have the resources to implement workplace improvements. Unions do not in fact enrich the "worker" to the extent they did under the old management paradigm which dicated that fear drives production(fear pertains to loss of job, income, and lifestyle)
Such an attitude was the personification of the Robber Barons in the Gilded Age and is no doubt pushed today by right wing groups like ALEC and the CATO Institute but is a recipe for the end of America as the shining star in the universe of nations.
No, it's simple logic, the squeaky wheel gets greased, the broken one gets replaced, anything less results in a failing workforce.
 
Satisfied employees are more productive which leads to growth and is a well known modern management paradigm. Abuses do exist but are usually in smaller companies that do not know, care, or have the resources to implement workplace improvements. Unions do not in fact enrich the "worker" to the extent they did under the old management paradigm which dicated that fear drives production(fear pertains to loss of job, income, and lifestyle) No, it's simple logic, the squeaky wheel gets greased, the broken one gets replaced, anything less results in a failing workforce.

worth noting - the need on the part of union leadership to perpetuate that 'fear' mechanism is why unionized employees also report being less happy with work and with their management.
 
Top 1 Percent Control 42 Percent of Financial Wealth in the U.S. – How Average Americans are Lured into Debt Servitude by Promises of Mega Wealth.

In a land where the top 1% own 42% of the wealth, the top 5% control 69% and the top 10% control 90%, that is a recipe for disaster - political disaster, social disaster and economic disaster. You might be able to get away with such an arrangement in a dictatorship or authoritarian nation where there is no right to vote. But in a democratic republic such as ours with modern communications - its a ticking time bomb.

Those who hold to the Gilded Age ideas of rugged individualistic capitalism may indeed do well in their gated communities... for a while. But in the long run, there will be no America if this continues.

The true American patriot knows this. The true lover of the American people know this. And the true lover of our principles and freedoms knows this.
 
worth noting - the need on the part of union leadership to perpetuate that 'fear' mechanism is why unionized employees also report being less happy with work and with their management.
Absolutely, in fact, management has overall changed for the better while union leadership has not. The fear aspect of unions follows the old management/worker paradigm, whether intentionally or not is unknown to me and it is a powerful tool. No one wants to go around life feeling undervalued and certainly doesn't want to feel screwed, that fear in itself allows unions the opportunity to pretend their value benefits the employee.
 
Top 1 Percent Control 42 Percent of Financial Wealth in the U.S. – How Average Americans are Lured into Debt Servitude by Promises of Mega Wealth.

In a land where the top 1% own 42% of the wealth, the top 5% control 69% and the top 10% control 90%, that is a recipe for disaster - political disaster, social disaster and economic disaster. You might be able to get away with such an arrangement in a dictatorship or authoritarian nation where there is no right to vote. But in a democratic republic such as ours with modern communications - its a ticking time bomb.

Those who hold to the Gilded Age ideas of rugged individualistic capitalism may indeed do well in their gated communities... for a while. But in the long run, there will be no America if this continues.

The true American patriot knows this. The true lover of the American people know this. And the true lover of our principles and freedoms knows this.

what we need is more ambition, less whining. More hard work, less envy and a government that stops encouraging sloth and dependence. less liberals telling people that they cannot succeed so they need the dem party to take care of them
 
If you think about it, taxing corporations is pointless since any tax increase will be passed on to the consumer through embedded taxes which is something like 20% of the cost of any given item.
 
I don't know about proposing any new rules ... as in laws ..... but I do very much would advocate that every company and employer in the land take into consideration a variety of factors in making decisions over and above the narrow question of maximizing profit.

Among the thing I would want them to consider is the effect of all their decisions upon society and all those in society and what is good for society and all those in it. I would ask them to weigh the narrow interests of their corporation with the interests of the wider society and all in it and to take all that into consideration.
A bit general here wouldn't you say? This sounds like something you might see at Dunder-Mifflin, Inc. perhaps in a lost episode of The Office. I mean, come on.............."Before we vote to go through with this merger, let us launch an in-depth study on how this merger will effect 'Society and all of those in it'" Good one. :thumbs:
 
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This is never going to happen. When a CEO's company has done something illegal, if the CEO condoned it, knew or should have known about it, he's in jail. If a guy on the line of a pharmaceutical packaging company poisons medicine and people die, you would hold the CEO responsible? This, of course, assuming he couldn't have known about it. The corporation might be sued out of existence....the CEO might be included in the lawsuit...but unless they could prove he knew, or should have known, he's free and clear. As it should be.

It may never happen, but it needs to. Imo, corporate law needs to return to the pre corporate personhood era. It's especially interesting how corporations have used the 14th Amendment more than minorities have.

Here's a brief summary: Corporate personhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yeah, I know. It's a wiki article, but it does provide a decent summary of the history of corporate personhood. At the very least, corporations should only be able to exist for a limited amount of time with specific provisions as well as a specific purpose. Furthermore, corporations should not be able to own other businesses. At one time in our history, and this may be difficult to believe, corporations existed for the public good. However, people noticed the opportunity for almost limitless profits behind a curtain of limited liability. It's gone downhill from there.
 
Corporations have a duty to their shareholders. However, part of that duty is making a profit, which includes making the employees and customers happy. If they have no customers or no employees, they cannot make a profit for the shareholders. It's all inter-connected.
 
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