View Poll Results: A sustainable free market has no regulation.

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  • Agree, no regulation

    36 39.56%
  • Disagree, requires regulation.

    33 36.26%
  • Cheese.

    10 10.99%
  • What? I wasn't ready for the picture!!!!

    12 13.19%
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Thread: Regulation & The Free Market

  1. #61
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    isn't it interesting how two people can look at the same information and come to such different conclusions. the lessons I draw from what you describe is that if we can barely trust people to govern themselves, we certainly cannot trust them to govern others.
    Therein lies the advantage of expertise over things such as common sense. With institutions, we can use the power of expertise while with decentralization, that is limited.

    What I posit is that noone can obtain sufficient knowledge over every area of their life, in a modern and complex world, to make good decisions about everything a person might need to. We have to rely on external knowledge and institutions. This is the difference.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 10-08-11 at 09:36 AM.

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Maybe, I am skeptical in your faith in human rationality. One thing history has taught us is that our rationality fights with all sorts of psychological, behavioral, emotional, and physical factors.

    Emotional and other factors will always be at play in these kinds of decisions, from business owners who hold onto the family business for too long due to their love of it to people who are overly predispositioned towards risk taking. Not that these behaviors are bad in and of themselves, but they can be maladaptive to a particular environment or scenario. Simply relying on people without expertise will not work, people are not smart enough in general for that (since nobody is good at everything), which is why we have bubbles in the first place. The best we can ever do is to listen to experts as it is unrealistic to expect everyone to be good at everything and then say its their fault if they fail to live up to that unrealistic ideal.
    I basically agree with what you're saying so long as we're talking about very minor government regulation. I'm not supporting anarchy. Thinking of your comments about the herd mentality earlier though, my point is that if a herd of people are running off a cliff and no one says anything, they'll continue to run off the cliff. If someone yells "hey, stop running, there's a cliff ahead and people are running off it!", then the herd turns before too many people fall to their doom. If a government puts in a bunch of regulations about how to run, where to run, what it takes to turn around, etc., then even though everyone see's what's happening, it becomes very difficult to change the situation because the government changes much more slowly than the market.

    Human rationality as a whole, on average, will adjust to problems with psychological, behavioral, emotional, and physical factors much more quickly than government. And, maybe more importantly, when the market handles necessary change, it will be a somewhat gradual process - with the effeciency curve for change becoming much less steep as more people change. The government takes forever to recognize the needed change, then it takes forever to debate the needed change, then it takes forever to legislate the needed change, then it takes forever for the market to understand the legislation, then it takes forever for the market to implement the legislation, then it takes time to work out the kinks because the government didn't understand the issue thoroughly. Often, by then, the market could've already adjusted if it hadn't had under the government influence to begin with.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Therein lies the advantage of expertise over things such as common sense. With institutions, we can use the power of expertise while with decentralization, that is limited.
    the power of the "expert" certainly is. however, you identified the interplay of emotions, biases, and tendency not to question assumptions as hindrances to making good decisions - but "experts" have proven just (if not more) susceptible to these. furthermore, the kind of expert that would be necessary in order to hold, process, and analyze all the information that is necessary to make the right decisions for millions of people in any field no matter how small is far beyond human (or, so far, computer) capacity. The "expert" becomes merely a fount of one-size-fits-not-really-anybody solutions combined with the coercive power of the state.

    Rule By Experts has been tried. So far, it has generally failed, and failed miserably. It's good to see that Socialism still has some proponents kicking around, however.

    What I posit is that no one can obtain sufficient knowledge over every area of their life, in a modern and complex world, to make good decisions about everything a person might need to.
    which is why instead we obtain sufficient knowledge of sources in order to make good decisions. I need a plumber - I go to Angie's List. I need a mutual fund - I go to Morningstar. and so on and so forth. People aren't generic interchangeable machine pieces for whom all the same rules and standards apply - we are individuals, each with our own individual talents, abilities, ambitions, and resources. Nobody knows them as well as we do, and so for the question of how cpwill will run his particulars, well it just so happens that the worlds' foremost expert in Cpwill's Life is cpwill (that's not completely true - it is his wife, but you get the gist). no outside expert can ever replicate the detailed hands-on experience and knowledge that I bring to the table when dealing matching my own resources to my own wants. I do not require someone to tell me how to go about getting my needs met, I only request that government stop making it so damn expensive and complicated.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-09-11 at 02:33 AM.

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    We already have spammers hacking the poll.
    If you see who voted, only Henrin voted. The other 34 are "visitors", therefore, spammers
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    A free market is NOT sustainable without regulation. For example, without regulation monopolies would form and take over large sectors of the economy. There would then be essentially nothing stopping them from creating "regulations" of their own to ensure that no competitors could form. And that would be far from a free market.
    I think that this is the current situation and that these "Corporate Persons" are buying our politicians and judges to protect their markets and prevent competition. So much of business is Government Contracts that are political paybacks and IOUs to donors already that "what the hell do the people really have to say about what their gov't does?" Reality bites, eh?

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the power of the "expert" certainly is. however, you identified the interplay of emotions, biases, and tendency not to question assumptions as hindrances to making good decisions - but "experts" have proven just (if not more) susceptible to these. furthermore, the kind of expert that would be necessary in order to hold, process, and analyze all the information that is necessary to make the right decisions for millions of people in any field no matter how small is far beyond human (or, so far, computer) capacity. The "expert" becomes merely a fount of one-size-fits-not-really-anybody solutions combined with the coercive power of the state.

    Rule By Experts has been tried. So far, it has generally failed, and failed miserably. It's good to see that Socialism still has some proponents kicking around, however.



    which is why instead we obtain sufficient knowledge of sources in order to make good decisions. I need a plumber - I go to Angie's List. I need a mutual fund - I go to Morningstar. and so on and so forth. People aren't generic interchangeable machine pieces for whom all the same rules and standards apply - we are individuals, each with our own individual talents, abilities, ambitions, and resources. Nobody knows them as well as we do, and so for the question of how cpwill will run his particulars, well it just so happens that the worlds' foremost expert in Cpwill's Life is cpwill (that's not completely true - it is his wife, but you get the gist). no outside expert can ever replicate the detailed hands-on experience and knowledge that I bring to the table when dealing matching my own resources to my own wants. I do not require someone to tell me how to go about getting my needs met, I only request that government stop making it so damn expensive and complicated.
    and .. by admitting that you yourself go to an expert when you have a problem that you do not understand, you have contradicted yourself in your statement that experts are problematic for people.

  7. #67
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the power of the "expert" certainly is. however, you identified the interplay of emotions, biases, and tendency not to question assumptions as hindrances to making good decisions - but "experts" have proven just (if not more) susceptible to these. furthermore, the kind of expert that would be necessary in order to hold, process, and analyze all the information that is necessary to make the right decisions for millions of people in any field no matter how small is far beyond human (or, so far, computer) capacity. The "expert" becomes merely a fount of one-size-fits-not-really-anybody solutions combined with the coercive power of the state.

    Rule By Experts has been tried. So far, it has generally failed, and failed miserably. It's good to see that Socialism still has some proponents kicking around, however.
    There's a big difference between the kind of "rule by experts" where the government tries to micromanage how much the grocer in Atlanta can charge for his apples, and the kind of "rule by experts" where the government is run by people with a working knowledge of basic macroeconomic principles (e.g. lowering interest rates stimulates the economy, raising interest rates hits the brakes). Although the government occasionally tries to dip into the former situation (usually with bad results), overall it's the latter situation that describes our government (which tends to work reasonably well). Throwing up our hands and declaring that "rule by experts" doesn't work is simply wrong, and goes against the empirical evidence. There are certain ways in which the "experts" in the government can absolutely influence the economy for the better.
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    We already have spammers hacking the poll.
    If you see who voted, only Henrin voted. The other 34 are "visitors", therefore, spammers
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    and .. by admitting that you yourself go to an expert when you have a problem that you do not understand, you have contradicted yourself in your statement that experts are problematic for people.
    yes, but I can pick my advisers, and hire or fire them based on how they work for me; and am free to ignore their advice if what they give me clashes with my personal situation. a government expert cannot be hired or fired, and I am forced to go to and obey him (or her) regardless of whether or not I find that they produce the best result.

    the answer to a complex world is not one-size-fits-all; but let three hundred million flowers bloom.

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    There's a big difference between the kind of "rule by experts" where the government tries to micromanage how much the grocer in Atlanta can charge for his apples, and the kind of "rule by experts" where the government is run by people with a working knowledge of basic macroeconomic principles (e.g. lowering interest rates stimulates the economy, raising interest rates hits the brakes). Although the government occasionally tries to dip into the former situation (usually with bad results), overall it's the latter situation that describes our government (which tends to work reasonably well). Throwing up our hands and declaring that "rule by experts" doesn't work is simply wrong, and goes against the empirical evidence. There are certain ways in which the "experts" in the government can absolutely influence the economy for the better.
    yeah, that's worked wonders lately, hasn't it?

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