View Poll Results: A sustainable free market has no regulation.

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  • Agree, no regulation

    36 39.56%
  • Disagree, requires regulation.

    33 36.26%
  • Cheese.

    10 10.99%
  • What? I wasn't ready for the picture!!!!

    12 13.19%
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Thread: Regulation & The Free Market

  1. #51
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    As a former smoker, I always think of tobacco companies when I think about regulation. Their story shows the failings of both sides of the regulatory environment:

    First, tobacco companies boosted their products addictive qualities -- going as far as to pump extra nicotine in -- and then covered up or just plain-old lied about the relationship to cancer. The market incentivized this behavior -- as long as the companies could avoid the consequences of the harm their products were causing, they stood to gain more profit. Without the power of government to investigate, cast light on and punish these practices, they might be going on today.
    When they first started to deny it the science behind it was still iffy at best and would of been hard to prove for anyone to show the direct relationship. By the time the connection was clear their efforts were losing ground. You had some people in government that were still denying the connection but their efforts were becoming less and less effective at stopping regulations from coming down the pipes. However, the connections the industry had in government did indeed extend the process far past the point of reason like it always does with these kind of connections. This is however isn't a problem of free markets but a problem of government.

    As for the taxes, they were designed to caused people to spend more than they can afford on their habit to force them to alter their behavior. It's no surprise its the result then. I do get your point though that the market did endorse this behavior but the market didn't care like it doesn't care today. If people don't care of the harm to them, then they don't care. That is their decision to make.
    Last edited by Henrin; 10-08-11 at 06:59 AM.

  2. #52
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why wouldn't that be taken into account on the very first time it happened?

    And really for Mach's example the person really has to be out to kill people to continue to do it.
    I don't know why, but these sorts of analysis happen in the world world with harmful results.

  3. #53
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    suggested reading :

    Attachment 67116495
    FYI: That wasn't a true story, hell it wasn't even meant to encourage health inspections of meat packing plants and Upton Sinclair opposed the bill put forth to regulate the meat packing industry.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 10-08-11 at 06:57 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    That's correct, the financial meltdown was a result of the deregulation of the financial sector. Without regulation capitalism becomes a cancer and will eventually eat itself alive.
    While I'm for some, very limited, regulation on the market - especially in the areas of health & safety, I think it could also very easily be argued that government involvement in the financial sector was a primary cause of the financial meltdown. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac aka the Federal Gov't set up the lending requirements and the money supply propping up a false market. And, the Federal Gov't lends money to banks which affects everything banks do. Banks are no longer business enterprises which invest their own money in projects or people they think will be a good risk and make a good return for the bank. Instead, in effect, the government controls who will or who won't be determined to be a good risk, it controls the approximate rates that can be used in most traditional lending, and it controls the amount of the loans that can be made for most projects. It has almost total control in the housing market, but it also has most of the control in the commercial lending market as well. And, the government controls/heavily influences the bond market, too, which affects everything else.

    The large, artificial, market bubbles that occasionally burst typically are either 1.) the result of government involvement or 2.) the lack of information in the market.

    The best way to regulate the free market is through education of the public.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Wow. Someone spammed the no vote 34 times.

    At least Cheese got 10 votes. Yay for cheese!
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post

    The large, artificial, market bubbles that occasionally burst typically are either 1.) the result of government involvement or 2.) the lack of information in the market.

    The best way to regulate the free market is through education of the public.
    No amount of education is going to remove human herd behavior, its instinctual.

  7. #57
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    No amount of education is going to remove human herd behavior, its instinctual.
    True, but I didn't mean "education" as in schooling. I was thinking about specific education about specific events. The media can call attention to poor working environments, the President can call attention to poor policy issues, individuals can form groups to boycott particular products or practices, public or private "watch dogs" can educate about products or practices as well.

    If political agenda and government didn't play as big a roll in the market, then supply and demand could do its thing more effectively and efficiently so long as the public had access to the information it needed to make informed decisions.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    True, but I didn't mean "education" as in schooling. I was thinking about specific education about specific events. The media can call attention to poor working environments, the President can call attention to poor policy issues, individuals can form groups to boycott particular products or practices, public or private "watch dogs" can educate about products or practices as well.

    If political agenda and government didn't play as big a roll in the market, then supply and demand could do its thing more effectively and efficiently so long as the public had access to the information it needed to make informed decisions.
    Maybe, I am skeptical in your faith in human rationality. One thing history has taught us is that our rationality fights with all sorts of psychological, behavioral, emotional, and physical factors.

    Emotional and other factors will always be at play in these kinds of decisions, from business owners who hold onto the family business for too long due to their love of it to people who are overly predispositioned towards risk taking. Not that these behaviors are bad in and of themselves, but they can be maladaptive to a particular environment or scenario. Simply relying on people without expertise will not work, people are not smart enough in general for that (since nobody is good at everything), which is why we have bubbles in the first place. The best we can ever do is to listen to experts as it is unrealistic to expect everyone to be good at everything and then say its their fault if they fail to live up to that unrealistic ideal.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 10-08-11 at 09:17 AM.

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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    assuming that enforcement of contract etc. is a regulation; yes, free markets require some level of regulation.

  10. #60
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    Re: Regulation & The Free Market

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Maybe, I am skeptical in your faith in human rationality. One thing history has taught us is that our rationality fights with all sorts of psychological, behavioral, emotional, and physical factors.

    Emotional and other factors will always be at play in these kinds of decisions, from business owners who hold onto the family business for too long due to their love of it to people who are overly predispositioned towards risk taking. Not that these behaviors are bad in and of themselves, but they can be maladaptive to a particular environment or scenario. Simply relying on people without expertise will not work, people are not smart enough in general for that (since nobody is good at everything), which is why we have bubbles in the first place. The best we can ever do is to listen to experts as it is unrealistic to expect everyone to be good at everything and then say its their fault if they fail to live up to that unrealistic ideal.
    isn't it interesting how two people can look at the same information and come to such different conclusions. the lessons I draw from what you describe is that if we can barely trust people to govern themselves, we certainly cannot trust them to govern others.

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