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Is the Death Penalty Murder?

Is the Death Penalty Murder?

  • Total voters
    70
DiAnna said:
Execution is not murder by its very definition. Execution is a legal form of punishment for certain crimes in certain states. It is not murder even if an innocent man is executed; it is a tragedy and a failure of our justice system.

The death penalty should be used rarely and only with the most heinous of crimes, where guilt has been established by myriad corroborated physical evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. It should never be used in a purely circumstantial case, it should never be used as a legal lever to coerce plea bargained confessions or testimony against another, it should never be used as a political tool to enhance a prosecutor or D.A.'s reputation. And because it is used 95% of the time for all the cases it should not be used on, it has become a travesty and has lost credence when used in those rare cases where it is appropriate and deserved.

BTW, the death penalty is an important issue to debate. I'm disappointed that it was used as a link to abortion. :(
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So when King Henry VIII (or choose your monarch) executed "heretics", that wasn't murder because it was lawful under his rule? Obviously this is an important topic that many feel strongly one way or the other about, but personally I don't buy the "the dictionary says so" argument.
 
X Factor said:
Recent high profile executions have resulted in a resurgence of debate about the death penalty. One thing I'm noticing is that, several times now, I have seen a post by someone who has told me in the past that it's wrong to call abortion murder (because abortion is legal) yet calling an execution murder. I do concede that abortion is not legally defined as murder, but then, wouldn't the same be true of the death penalty?

So, what do you think? Is carrying out the death penalty murder? Explain why or why not.
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I would just like to clarify the contrast between abortion and capital punishment.

The abortion debate is surrounded in non-provable questions regarding the fetus' level of consciousness, its level of suffering, if it's a separate being, if it has personhood, if it's okay to abort for medical reasons or reason of rape, etc. There is ambiguity over the status of the fetus as a separate being and what this means.

We know fully well that a criminal is a human being who is alive, autonomous, and is being held accountable for something done wrong. My problem with the death penalty is that innocent people die, it's more expensive than just throwing them in jail, it disrupts communities further by killing an additional person, it doesn't bring egalitarian resolution to a crime that happened, etc.

There is no ambiguity as to whether or not a convict is alive, sentient, and aware. They are. It's eye for an eye and nothing else. I wholeheartedly reject it as a means of discipline.
 
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My view on the death penalty is that when someone is found guilty of something that means they'll never be let into society again, they should be given a choice between life and death. Presumably, innocent people will choose to go to jail, since they know there's a good chance they'll be let out later. It also removes the costly appeals process. As for the execution itself, just use a firing squad. It's fast, effective, humane, and it doesn't cost tens of thousands of dollars.
 
atrasicarius said:
My view on the death penalty is that when someone is found guilty of something that means they'll never be let into society again, they should be given a choice between life and death. Presumably, innocent people will choose to go to jail, since they know there's a good chance they'll be let out later.
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That choice is naive. Who would pick death? No one would.

It also removes the costly appeals process. As for the execution itself, just use a firing squad. It's fast, effective, humane, and it doesn't cost tens of thousands of dollars.
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Why would that remove the appeals process?

Anywhere you are shot you don't die right away. Even if you are shot in the head you brain lives for a bit after the fact.
 
DashingAmerican said:
No, as long as it can be proven, without a doubt that the person is guilty of a heinous crime, it is a legitimate form of justice.
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That can never be proven without a doubt. Even the standard "beyond a reasonable doubt" is not "without any doubt." We know that innocent people have been sentenced to die and then exonerated. A jailed person can be released, but I don't know anyone who can bring people back from the dead.
 
Redress said:
Congratz, you used to perfect example. If you are using the definition of the word murder, then neither executions nor abortions are murder, since both are legal. In both cased it is emotional rhetoric.
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For the most part, I don't disagree with this. I don't claim that abortion is murder, however, I have used the term as a way to try to explain how I view abortion and why I oppose it. Usually, it's in response to the usual "if you don't like abortion, don't have one" which is exactly akin to me saying, "If you don't like the death penalty, don't execute anyone."
 
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X Factor said:
Recent high profile executions have resulted in a resurgence of debate about the death penalty. One thing I'm noticing is that, several times now, I have seen a post by someone who has told me in the past that it's wrong to call abortion murder (because abortion is legal) yet calling an execution murder. I do concede that abortion is not legally defined as murder, but then, wouldn't the same be true of the death penalty?

So, what do you think? Is carrying out the death penalty murder? Explain why or why not.
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Seeing how murder is nothing more than a legal technicality I would have to say that the death penalty is not murder. For example if it became legal to kill people of a certain religion,ethnicity, sexual preference or race then killing that person would not be murder while if you killed someone who was not on that okay to kill list it would be murder.
 
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Criminologists' Views on Deterrence and the Death Penalty

"Eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide, according to a new study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology and authored by Professor Michael Radelet, Chair of the Department of Sociology at the University of Colorado-Boulder, and Traci Lacock, also at Boulder.

Similarly, 87% of the expert criminologists believe that abolition of the death penalty would not have any significant effect on murder rates. In addition, 75% of the respondents agree that “debates about the death penalty distract Congress and state legislatures from focusing on real solutions to crime problems.”

The survey relied on questionnaires completed by the most pre-eminent criminologists in the country, including Fellows in the American Society of Criminology; winners of the American Society of Criminology’s prestigious Southerland Award; and recent presidents of the American Society of Criminology. Respondents were not asked for their personal opinion about the death penalty, but instead to answer on the basis of their understandings of the empirical research.
Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center
 
X Factor said:
For the most part, I don't disagree with this. I don't claim that abortion is murder, however, I have used the term as a way to try to explain how I view abortion and why I oppose it. Usually, it's in response to the usual "if you don't like abortion, don't have one" which is exactly akin to me saying, "If you don't like the death penalty, don't execute anyone."
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Well...no. If you do not like abortion, you have the option to not have one. If you do not like the death penalty, you have to change the law(assuming that state does have the death penalty) or accept that executions will happen. If you use murder to describe abortion at all, you are engaging in emotional rhetoric.
 
Henrin said:
That choice is naive. Who would pick death? No one would.
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I would, if I knew I had no chance of ever getting out of prison. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Henrin said:
Why would that remove the appeals process?
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Um, because if the person chooses the death sentence, they probably won't try to appeal it to get it changed. Duh.

Henrin said:
Anywhere you are shot you don't die right away. Even if you are shot in the head you brain lives for a bit after the fact.
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Have you shot anything recently? Or ever? I have a Mosin Nagant, which fires 7.62x54 rounds. If you get hit in the head by one of those, your brain will nothing but a pink splatter on the wall behind you. I think you're getting confused with having your head chopped off.
 
Murder? I don't know. Is justifiable homicide a form of murder? If the victim had killed the prep during the commission of the crime, would it have been ruled 'justifiable homicide'? If so, why can't society give justice to that victim?

I have no problem with the death penalty being applied when it has been proven that guilty party committed a heinous crime beyond any doubt (not just the reasonable doubt criteria that is needed to convict someone of a crime).
 
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Frolicking Dinosaurs said:
Murder? I don't know. Is justifiable homicide a form of murder? If the victim had killed the prep during the commission of the crime, would it have been ruled 'justifiable homicide'? If so, why can't society give justice to that victim?

I have no problem with the death penalty being applied when it has been proven that guilty party committed a heinous crime beyond any doubt (not just the reasonable doubt criteria that is needed to convict someone of a crime).
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There ya go bingo..you hit a point I was going to post...let me elaborate. A man enters a store with a gun to rob the store...threatens the owner give me your money while brandishing the gun....the owner grabs his gun and shoots the robber dead...is that murder ? most likely not in the eyes of the law and most people would cheer the store owner for having the testes to do it....
I still submit that I dislike the death penalty but there are some humans that are unfortunately not worth salvaging...there may be some good in everyone but in some the bad totally savages any good..
 
lpast said:
There ya go bingo..you hit a point I was going to post...let me elaborate. A man enters a store with a gun to rob the store...threatens the owner give me your money while brandishing the gun....the owner grabs his gun and shoots the robber dead...is that murder ? most likely not in the eyes of the law and most people would cheer the store owner for having the testes to do it....
I still submit that I dislike the death penalty but there are some humans that are unfortunately not worth salvaging...there may be some good in everyone but in some the bad totally savages any good..
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Nobody can actually threaten anyone locked inside a jail cell. The two examples are not the same. The store owner was acting to protect his own life. If you can show me where the criminal can actually threaten a life locked in a jail cell I'll reconsider.

Yes, murders happen in prison but I can't recall someone who has recieved the death penalty ever killing anyone once locked up. Maybe a rare example cuold be found but it would be rare.
 
1Perry said:
Nobody can actually threaten anyone locked inside a jail cell. The two examples are not the same. The store owner was acting to protect his own life. If you can show me where the criminal can actually threaten a life locked in a jail cell I'll reconsider.

Yes, murders happen in prison but I can't recall someone who has recieved the death penalty ever killing anyone once locked up. Maybe a rare example cuold be found but it would be rare.
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There are murders in prisons.especially state prisons

Officer John V. Mills, California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, California

Corrections Officer Donna A. Payant, New York State Department of Correctional Services, New York

Correctional Officer Killed in the Line of Duty at Charlotte Correctional Institution

Panhandle Corrections Officer Dies In The Line Of Duty : NorthEscambia.com

Press Release: Correctional Officer Murdered at Tomoka Correctional Institution

Theres hundreds of murders in prison...this is not counting murdered convicts....prison murders are notoriously under reported...corrections officials despise any notoriety around prison murders and are loathe to report them...they keep it as toned down as possible....severe injuries are an hourly occurence in maximum security prisons that arent total lockdown facilities which most are not.
 
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lpast said:
There are murders in prisons.especially state prisons
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1. You didn't read what I said.
2. You did and are argueing that all prisoners should be put to death.
 
1Perry said:
1. You didn't read what I said.
2. You did and are argueing that all prisoners should be put to death.
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No im not...I concede we werent talking about the same thing perry :)
 
X Factor said:
Recent high profile executions have resulted in a resurgence of debate about the death penalty. One thing I'm noticing is that, several times now, I have seen a post by someone who has told me in the past that it's wrong to call abortion murder (because abortion is legal) yet calling an execution murder. I do concede that abortion is not legally defined as murder, but then, wouldn't the same be true of the death penalty?

So, what do you think? Is carrying out the death penalty murder? Explain why or why not.
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No, it's not murder. I disagree with it, because I don't think the government should have the right to kill it's citizens unless it is in direct defense against an existing threat (shooting a gunman on a rampage, for example).

But since it is legal, it cannot be murder.
 
The False Confession | Psychology Today

An interesting read and relevant to this topic. Plenty of convicted criminals are convicted because they confessed to the crime, but false confessions are actually pretty common. Yet another piece of evidence leading us toward the inevitable conclusion, that our system executes innocent people. The killing of an innocent person is murder, so yes, sometimes the death penalty can be murder. And it's quite a leap of faith to think that we've never executed an innocent person.
 
Paschendale said:
The False Confession | Psychology Today

An interesting read and relevant to this topic. Plenty of convicted criminals are convicted because they confessed to the crime, but false confessions are actually pretty common. Yet another piece of evidence leading us toward the inevitable conclusion, that our system executes innocent people. The killing of an innocent person is murder, so yes, sometimes the death penalty can be murder. And it's quite a leap of faith to think that we've never executed an innocent person.
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The killing of an innocent person is not murder until one is convicted of murder. Innocent people are killed everyday, many times because of willful actions of people. Such as drunk driving. Generally they are not convicted of murder because murder is nothing more than a legal definition and certain conditions must be met and a jury or judge must agree.
 
So long as the DP is carried out in accordance with the law, it -cannot- be murder.
:shrug:
 
Frolicking Dinosaurs said:
Murder? I don't know. Is justifiable homicide a form of murder? If the victim had killed the prep during the commission of the crime, would it have been ruled 'justifiable homicide'? If so, why can't society give justice to that victim?
I have no problem with the death penalty being applied when it has been proven that guilty party committed a heinous crime beyond any doubt (not just the reasonable doubt criteria that is needed to convict someone of a crime).
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The difference is self defense. Executions are not self defense; just like shooting a criminal who is running away would not be considered self defense.
 
Of course it isnt 'murder'. Murder is defined as "unlawful killing." The death penalty is not only legal but described as a valid penalty for certain heinous acts.

Interesting how easily some 'qualify' their definitions.
 
VanceMack said:
Of course it isnt 'murder'. Murder is defined as "unlawful killing." The death penalty is not only legal but described as a valid penalty for certain heinous acts.

Interesting how easily some 'qualify' their definitions.
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What I've always been in awe of are the people who want to call abortion murder, but get riled up when the DP is called murder, and, on the flip side, people who want to call the DP murder, but get all riled up when abortion is called murder.

The people who don't call either of those murder, or call both murder (I believe Mac considers both to be murder) are at least consistent in their application of the word.
 
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