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Is the Death Penalty Murder?

Is the Death Penalty Murder?

  • Total voters
    70
Redress said:
Well...no. If you do not like abortion, you have the option to not have one. If you do not like the death penalty, you have to change the law(assuming that state does have the death penalty) or accept that executions will happen.
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I'm gonna change what you said just a bit.

If you do not like the death penalty, you have the option to not execute anyone. If you do not like abortion, you have to change the law(assuming that state does have the abortion - which all do, thanks to the Supreme Court) or accept that abortions will happen.

See? If I want to see an end to legal abortion on demand, I have work to change the law.

If you use murder to describe abortion at all, you are engaging in emotional rhetoric.
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I'm sure I've done that. Abortion is an emotional subject. What I'm saying, though, is somebody telling me my only option, if I oppose abortion is to not have one (while just happily accepting that others will) is the same thing, to me, as saying, "If you oppose murder, then your only remedy is not to murder anyone (while just happily accepting that others will)."
 
Its not murder, no more than abortion is murder.

It may be immoral killing depending on ones moral views, or it could be an unjust killing based on the circumstances of the individuals innocence, but its not "murder".
 
Redress said:
Well...no. If you do not like abortion, you have the option to not have one. If you do not like the death penalty, you have to change the law(assuming that state does have the death penalty) or accept that executions will happen. If you use murder to describe abortion at all, you are engaging in emotional rhetoric.
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That's not exactly right.

If you do not like abortions and feel its unjust killings, then you want them to stop entirely, and thus need to change the law. This is similar to not liking executions and feeling its an unjust killing, and thus having to change the law to stop them entirely.

In both cases you could try and say the person should just not do it themselves. Don't become a state executioner (or part of the law enforcement establishment) if you don't want to execute people, don't have abortions if you don't want abortions. However, that doesn't cut to the heart of peoples issues which is a broader, societal allowance rather than a personal one. In both cases, to truly "stop" it in the way the people suggest they want it stopped it would require changes of the law.
 
Jryan said:
Well you would be right if the person had murdered and gotten out of jail again.
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He's right, period - dead people do not commit crimes.
 
Jryan said:
Well you would be right if the person had murdered and gotten out of jail again. Most of these people are life time criminals and I"m not talking about the one time solo person. Most of these guys are in involved in gangs, live in poverty, and can't afford a proper attorney. Your 100% is guaranteed wrong, look up how jail is a revolving door. 80% of people who are released from prison will return, EIGHTY PERCENT. Then again you can't increase punishments because there is the 20% who are not returning, they did their time and are sorry for what they have done. I have to say though honestly, I'm surprised it isn't a 100% prison return rate.
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I think you're making my argument for me. The majority of people in prison will get out only to commit more crimes. A murderer who is executed though, never will hurt anyone else again. That's the specific deterrence I was referring too.
 
Zyphlin said:
Its not murder, no more than abortion is murder.
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This fallacy has already been addressed. A ZEF has no developed brain stem. It's not even conscious. You're comparing an organism with a handful of cells to a fully grown adult. They grew up, were a member of a family, a community. People care about them. The death penalty inflicts the same injustice on a whole other community as the executed did to their victim. It's blood for blood.

Whoever presses the button to inject lethal drugs into a person is a murderer, and whoever pays them to do it or assists them is an accomplice.

Pretty much the only people who aren't accomplices are the ones who protest it, because they refuse to be part of it.

Zyphlin said:
It may be immoral killing depending on ones moral views, or it could be an unjust killing based on the circumstances of the individuals innocence, but its not "murder".
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This is an obtuse argument. Even if you personally believe that a fetus has personhood and is conscious, you know damn well that this fact is controversial and there are no objective answers. A fully grown adult being executed at the behest of the state is a declared citizen of the United States, and a declared person, something that a fetus is not.

You can try and blend the two all you want in order to make the death penalty seem more subjective, but it's nothing but a fallacy, and for very clear reasons. Not to mention, most abortions aren't paid for by the State, unlike executions which my tax dollars fund.
 
Temporal said:
Whoever presses the button to inject lethal drugs into a person is a murderer
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That's a wonderful opinion to have. Its also a 100% wrong opinion. Unless you're speaking about in a location that pressing the button to inject the lethal drug is against the law.

Sorry Temporal, words have meanings.
 
I cant believe this thread is still going on.

Its not murder, since murder has legality to it, its impossible :shrug:

can the minority here explain to me how the death penalty is murder? whats the logic?
 
Zyphlin said:
That's a wonderful opinion to have. Its also a 100% wrong opinion. Unless you're speaking about in a location that pressing the button to inject the lethal drug is against the law.
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I'm not talking about legalities here, but morality. The law around capital punishment is immoral, and that is what this debate is about. If we stopped at "the law says it's okay" then there would be no debate, and thus no political discussion. Step outside of the box for a minute, if you can?

Zyphlin said:
Sorry Temporal, words have meanings.
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Words have relative meanings. Why is it not okay for the family of the victim to go kill the killer themselves, but it's okay for the State to do it? One is murder and the other is execution. You're right, words have meanings, and they are applied in an arbitrary fashion in this case.

The majority of people who support capital punishment are of the right wing, and many of them of the religious right. Put yourself in the position of the person who is responsible for killing someone. Does it make a difference if they are innocent or not, if they are an enemy combatant, if they are the person who killed your child? It's potentially your karma on the line here.

You are either pro-life, which means you are against killing other people, or you are in arbitrary semantic land where words grant simple conveniences.
 
SheWolf said:
And while you're pointing out irony and using hyperbole, let me throw this out there... I bet you're against the slaughter of unborn children, but for the slaughter of walking breathing people in handcuffs... am I right?
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OK, I would be in favor of the death penalty for any unborn child who was found guilty of pre-meditated murder.
 
Zyphlin said:
Its not murder, no more than abortion is murder.

It may be immoral killing depending on ones moral views, or it could be an unjust killing based on the circumstances of the individuals innocence, but its not "murder".
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If "murder" is based on one's moral views and is thus highly subjective, then "murder" virtually doesn't exist as most murderers agree with killing the person they killed.

Moral relativism therefore demands the abolition of most crimes.
 
Temporal said:
I'm not talking about legalities here, but morality. The law around capital punishment is immoral, and that is what this debate is about.
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Actually, the debate IS about legality since murder is defined by unlawful, not immoral, killing.

I said earlier in this thread the death penalty absolutely could be viewed as "immoral" or "unjust" killing. Not sure what you're trying to argue with in regards to that because I've stated as such. However, immoral killing is not necessarily "murder".

Why is it not okay for the family of the victim to go kill the killer themselves, but it's okay for the State to do it?
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Essentially its the norms of behavior placed down by society through the social contract. That said, that's entirely seperate to the question this thread is actually asking. This thread wasn't a question of whether or not executions are bad, executions are hypocritical, or laws regarding execution are backwards. This thread is about whether or not state executions are "murder".
 
Actually, the debate IS about legality since murder is defined by unlawful, not immoral, killing.
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What if I said that I think the death penalty should be unlawful.
 
Jryan said:
What if I said that I think the death penalty should be unlawful.
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I think that's an entirely legitimate opinion to have, however feeling it should be unlawful doesn't make it unlawful and thus doesn't make its current implimentation murder.
 
Bardo said:
Does murder have to be illegal for it to be considered murder from a moral stand point? Obviously if it's legal it's not murder from a legal stand point, but what if the law is wrong?
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Murder, if your going by the definition "the unlawful killing of another" is completely separated from morals and therefor, even if a killing is against your morals, it can't be murder unless against the law.
 
Zyphlin said:
I think that's an entirely legitimate opinion to have, however feeling it should be unlawful doesn't make it unlawful and thus doesn't make its current implimentation murder.
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Sorry to be subjective here, but in my mind it is unlawful to execute someone. Therefore, in my mind/logic/code of ethics, it is murder.
 
Jryan said:
Sorry to be subjective here, but in my mind it is unlawful to execute someone. Therefore, in my mind/logic/code of ethics, it is murder.
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In my mind it is unlawful to call things that are lawful unlawful.
 
Jryan said:
Sorry to be subjective here, but in my mind it is unlawful to execute someone. Therefore, in my mind/logic/code of ethics, it is murder.
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And in my mind unicorns leap rainbows while pooping gold.

What happens in our mind isn't reality. At best, you can say in your own incorrect, misinformed, opinion of what the law is that it is murder in your mind...and I guess that would be true, just for you. It wouldn't be true in reality though, because in reality, at least in the states doing it in this country, it IS legal.

For example, lets relate your thought process to something else. "Speeding" as its generally defined is illegally expeeding the speed limit on the road. Well, if you thought Speed Limits were illegal would you not be "speeding" if you were going 75 in a 55? Maybe in your OPINION you weren't, but in reality, under the law, and by definition...yes, you would still be speeding.

Just because you don't think state executions are legal doesn't mean they aren't, at this point in time, legal and therefore at worst its an immoral killing not murder
 
In my honest opinion, state executions are murder. It is as if one delayed a killing of a criminal from the crime scene all the way to the execution time. Also, if the evidence were doubtable, then what point is the execution? One cannot change the status of a criminal (from dead to alive, I mean).

Mistakes happen. That's why I don't want state executions plus the belief that it is murder.

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After all, what worse punishment to a criminal is life imprisonment? Instead of just hearing a "bang!" and death, you get an entire lifetime of sitting in prison.
 
1) Murder implies illegality. The legal system doing it instantly negates the illegality of it.

2) Prisoners these days get treated like royalty. I'm sure they're not sweating and wringing their hands in guilt at night when HBO's True Blood is on.
 
Both are murder... abortion and death penalty.
 
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