View Poll Results: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $60k

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Thread: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $60k

  1. #31
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And of course YOU would be king of the world and determine where necessity ends and discretionary begins. Hehehe, what a joke.
    Did I say that? No, I didn't. I think most people could probably agree on what are the bare necessities. I'm talking about things like food, a roof over your head, clothing, transportation to and from work.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  2. #32
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yes because you, nor Sam, has presented any evidence to the contrary.
    I suppose you'd like evidence to prove that water is wet and the pope is catholic too.

    Sorry but its nothing less than dumb to assert that most people are poor or lack wealth because they must be mismanaging their money. At the very most i could understand the position that most non-wealthy people lack wealth because they dont save enough. But your assertion is just an embaressment to yourself. One that even if proven absolutely wrong i dont see you backing down from.

    When the median salary in the US is around $32k and the living wage required for a family of two adults and one child is somewhere around $40k, then its no surprise that most Americans lack any significant wealth.

    But even if we dont go into the details of statistics your assertion is still laudable. Most US jobs pay wages that barely support a decent standard of living unless you are single without children. You would have us believe that anyone working these average American jobs mismanages their money and are entirely to blame because they arent pulling in a CEOs, engineering, or doctors wage.

    Sam pegs your response to a 'T':
    And lurking at the bottom of this morass one finds flagrantly irrational ideas about the human condition. Many of my critics pretend that they have been entirely self-made. They seem to feel responsible for their intellectual gifts, for their freedom from injury and disease, and for the fact that they were born at a specific moment in history. Many appear to have absolutely no awareness of how lucky one must be to succeed at anything in life, no matter how hard one works. One must be lucky to be able to work. One must be lucky to be intelligent, to not have cerebral palsy, or to not have been bankrupted in middle age by the mortal illness of a spouse. Many of us have been extraordinarily lucky—and we did not earn it. Many good people have been extraordinarily unlucky—and they did not deserve it. And yet I get the distinct sense that if I asked some of my readers why they weren’t born with club feet, or orphaned before the age of five, they would not hesitate to take credit for these accomplishments.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Your position is at the very least, equal to mine.
    Not even close. But continue with your sociopathic rationalizations if it makes you feel better.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    By doing what?
    Does it change the behavior of those with no assets to get them to have assets?
    yet another red herring and strawman.

    I ahree that having the rich and ultra rich pay fair taxes does not make the middle and lower class more wealthy. But thats entirely irrelevant to this discussion.



    This discussion is about solving the budget crisis so the government can continue to offer necessary services and programs for its citizens. Nothing about wealth redistribution whatsoever.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I suppose you'd like evidence to prove that water is wet and the pope is catholic too.

    Sorry but its nothing less than dumb to assert that most people are poor or lack wealth because they must be mismanaging their money. At the very most i could understand the position that most non-wealthy people lack wealth because they dont save enough. But your assertion is just an embaressment to yourself. One that even if proven absolutely wrong i dont see you backing down from.

    When the median salary in the US is around $32k and the living wage required for a family of two adults and one child is somewhere around $40k, then its no surprise that most Americans lack any significant wealth.

    But even if we dont go into the details of statistics your assertion is still laudable. Most US jobs pay wages that barely support a decent standard of living unless you are single without children. You would have us believe that anyone working these average American jobs mismanages their money and are entirely to blame because they arent pulling in a CEOs, engineering, or doctors wage.


    I speak from experience.
    My income (family income) for the past 4 years has been roughly $25k a year, yet I support a family of 4, have savings and investments, just bought a house and for some crazy reason I should believe that clap trap that the living wage is $32k.

    You're making excuses and it's a sad joke.

    You want to know the most striking difference between me and my coworkers who have a similar income?
    They grossly mismanage their money.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Sam pegs your response to a 'T':
    And lurking at the bottom of this morass one finds flagrantly irrational ideas about the human condition. Many of my critics pretend that they have been entirely self-made. They seem to feel responsible for their intellectual gifts, for their freedom from injury and disease, and for the fact that they were born at a specific moment in history. Many appear to have absolutely no awareness of how lucky one must be to succeed at anything in life, no matter how hard one works. One must be lucky to be able to work. One must be lucky to be intelligent, to not have cerebral palsy, or to not have been bankrupted in middle age by the mortal illness of a spouse. Many of us have been extraordinarily lucky—and we did not earn it. Many good people have been extraordinarily unlucky—and they did not deserve it. And yet I get the distinct sense that if I asked some of my readers why they weren’t born with club feet, or orphaned before the age of five, they would not hesitate to take credit for these accomplishments.
    Sam is an idiot.
    Each person expresses different behaviors in regards to their finances, you'll likely find that people with low amounts of assets, treat their money with an emotional, not logical process.

    Luck is a fantasy, much like religion, that you would otherwise dismiss.
    Contradiction of beliefs for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Not even close. But continue with your sociopathic rationalizations if it makes you feel better.
    Incorrect.


    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    yet another red herring and strawman.

    I ahree that having the rich and ultra rich pay fair taxes does not make the middle and lower class more wealthy. But thats entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
    Then why bring up how much in assets people have?
    You have virtually adopted Sam's argument as your own.
    Explain what significance that has when you and Sam have introduced it.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    This discussion is about solving the budget crisis so the government can continue to offer necessary services and programs for its citizens. Nothing about wealth redistribution whatsoever.
    I'm dissecting his and your crappy arguments.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 09-21-11 at 06:56 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    How Much Do Americans Save | Shrinkage Is Good

    Here's a nice picture link of some of the various reasons people don't save.
    It's even sourced.

    Notice how people in China, with much, much lower income levels and much, much lower lifestyle amenities save more than your average America.

    I guess they're just lucky....
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #35
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post

    I speak from experience.
    My income (family income) for the past 4 years has been roughly $25k a year, yet I support a family of 4, have savings and investments, just bought a house and for some crazy reason I should believe that clap trap that the living wage is $32k.
    Please list your approximate monthly expenses for your family for the following:
    1 Food
    2 child care
    3 medical (insurance and any reoccuring expenses)
    4 housing/rent
    5 transporation (car loan + gas + repairs + registration, etc)

    What state do you live in?

    If you are going to advertize yourself as a poster child then prove it. Otherwise i think you are lying or grossly misrepresenting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You want to know the most striking difference between me and my coworkers who have a similar income?
    They grossly mismanage their money.
    Your coworkers mismanage their income so everyone else most likely is too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Each person expresses different behaviors in regards to their finances,
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    you'll likely find that people with low amounts of assets, treat their money with an emotional, not logical process
    Even if they did (which i am not conceding) they still have to be making a high enough income to even invest. Saving a couple hundred a month isn't going to pay for retirement. Only a new fridge, car replacement, and rainy day fund.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then why bring up how much in assets people have?
    Because it demonstrates the rich and ultra wealthy are in the best position financially and ethically to pay a greater percentage without adversely effecting their life and finances as compared to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Luck is a fantasy,
    of course.

    You werent lucky to be:
    1 born intelligent
    2 in this country
    3 in this time period
    4 without cerebral palsy
    5 without downs syndrome
    6 not orphaned before the age of five

    You werent lucky to not have been bankrupted or unemployed by mortal illness of yourself or spouse.

    Harry Guerilla succedded and avoided all these pitfalls on his own merit, skill, and talent.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  6. #36
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Please list your approximate monthly expenses for your family for the following:
    1 Food - Approximately $100-120 per week
    2 child care - $0
    3 medical (insurance and any reoccuring expenses)- $21.53 per week Med, $4.43 per week Dental
    4 housing/rent- $467.36 PITI
    5 transporation (car loan + gas + repairs + registration, etc)- Gas per week is approximately $30-40, I just bought new tires with the rebate it comes to $250, registration was $60 this year, I do my own oil changes which usually comes to around $30 but I do buy the premium oil.

    What state do you live in? Georgia

    If you are going to advertize yourself as a poster child then prove it. Otherwise i think you are lying or grossly misrepresenting.
    As requested in bold.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Your coworkers mismanage their income so everyone else most likely is too.
    That's not what I said but that is just a survey of the people around me, that I know more intimately than others.
    If they are a verifiable example of the American public, the problems are of their own doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I agree.
    Cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Even if they did (which i am not conceding) they still have to be making a high enough income to even invest. Saving a couple hundred a month isn't going to pay for retirement. Only a new fridge, car replacement, and rainy day fund.
    A couple hundred a month certainly can pay for retirement, compounding interest and a dedicated savings plan would see to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Because it demonstrates the rich and ultra wealthy are in the best position financially and ethically to pay a greater percentage without adversely effecting their life and finances as compared to others.
    Ethically, it is wrong to make people pay for damages they did not incur.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    of course.

    You werent lucky to be:
    1 born intelligent
    2 in this country
    3 in this time period
    4 without cerebral palsy
    5 without downs syndrome
    6 not orphaned before the age of five

    You werent lucky to not have been bankrupted or unemployed by mortal illness of yourself or spouse.
    I take care of a family member that was born with a life long physical disability, that was shuffled around to different family members because their parents did not want the responsibility.
    Luck has nothing to do with it.

    It's all about your response to bad circumstances.
    Make the better choice and you can lessen those negative effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Harry Guerilla succedded and avoided all these pitfalls on his own merit, skill, and talent.
    Nope, I had help from others, but my response to those events was the make or break moment, of whether or not, I succeed or fail.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #37
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    As requested in bold.
    Monthly Expenses Guerrilla Standard of living Notes
    food $440 $450 450 sounds reasonable if you make all your meals at home and buy in bulk.
    childcare $0 $200 $10/day * 20 days a month
    medical $100 $200 for a family of 2 or more, its at LEAST $200 a month for complete coverage. I pay $282 for myself and wife from a company with outstanding benefits. I don't know how you only pay $100/month for 3-4 people.
    mortgage $470 $800 Low end rental rates are about $800 for 2-3 bedroom. Purchasing a home today even with low interest rates still puts you above $800/month not including insurance, PMI, repairs, etc (150k house, 5.5% rate, 30 years). So i think at LEAST $800 is a more reasonable number for the average American.
    transport $71 $318 $50 to fill tank and fill 2.5 times per month = $150
    Registration = $60/12month=$5/month. Car insurance minimum coverage $1/day → $30/month
    Car payments = $5000 vehicle with 5 year loan at 0% APR = $83/month
    Assume about $50/month for repairs/oil change/maintenance/tires/etc
    other $60 Other: toiletries, clothes, shoes, phone, tv/internet
    utils $200 electricity, gas, trash/sewer, water, prop taxes, home owners/renters insurance
    Monthly total $1,081 $2,228
    Yearly total $12,970 $26,736

    These are just basic necessities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If they are a verifiable example of the American public, the problems are of their own doing.
    If I'm the Queen of England.... you get the picture.

    I think you highly over estimate that state of affairs in the US. As indicated by your own spending, you have a significant advantage many others do not with extremely small rent, medical insurance, etc. As the analysis shows, the 25k/year income can only sustain the most basic needs of an American family and that is with no extra money left over whatsoever! These are just basic necessities,



    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A couple hundred a month certainly can pay for retirement, compounding interest and a dedicated savings plan would see to that.
    What type of rate and return are you anticipating exactly?


    CPI has been about 2-3% inflation per year.

    Stock market returns for last 100 years is about 9-10% per year.

    Calculate compound interest

    Lets assume you work and save from the time you are 25 to a 70 (45 years)
    Assume a yield of 7%. And monthly contribution of $200.
    You will have $760,000 in saving for retirement. How many years of living does that provide you if there is no SS or other benefits?


    Lets calculate on the very high side:
    Lets assume you work and save from the time you are 20 to a 75 (55 years)
    Assume a whooping yield of 9%!!! And monthly contribution of $200.
    You will have $3,700,000 in saving for retirement. How many years of living does that provide you if there is no SS or other benefits?


    So looks like if you can save +$200 a month you will probably be OK.... if you start early.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Ethically, it is wrong to make people pay for damages they did not incur.
    Members of a society both reaps rewards and share the burden of consequences. Everyone is responsible for their fair share, rich or poor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I take care of a family member that was born with a life long physical disability, that was shuffled around to different family members because their parents did not want the responsibility.
    Luck has nothing to do with it.
    How does that have anything to with your LUCK being:
    1 born intelligent
    2 in this country
    3 in this time period
    4 without cerebral palsy
    5 without downs syndrome
    6 not orphaned before the age of five
    It's all about your response to bad circumstances.
    Make the better choice and you can lessen those negative effects.

    Just as Sam said, you attempt to claim credit for the above things when you had no hand in their outcome whatsoever!


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Nope, I had help from others, but my response to those events was the make or break moment, of whether or not, I succeed or fail.
    How did you personally ensure that you were:
    1 born intelligent
    2 born in this country
    3 born in this time period
    4 able to avoid cerebral palsy, cancer, etc
    5 born without downs syndrome
    6 not orphaned before the age of five

    According to you happenstance and chance (luck) had nothing to do with it! No one is trying to take credit where credit its deserved. But its astounding arrogant to take credit where none is earned. And the above things ( among many many many more things) you did not earn!
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #38
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    I forgot to ask this: is that 25k/year after fed/state income taxes?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  9. #39
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    No.

    I am a proponent of a flat tax, the only fair tax.

  10. #40
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    Re: Should someone who earns $1 billion a year be taxed more than someone who makes $

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99
    How many Republicans who have vowed not to raise taxes on billionaires would want to live in a country with a trillionaire and 30 percent unemployment? If the answer is “none”—and it really must be—then everyone is in favor of “wealth redistribution.”
    I think Mr. Harris far underestimates the committment to ideology among some republicans. While attending a conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma for two weeks, I asked almost this very question to many of the local attendees (most of whom worked in higher education, I might add, so presumably these were among the more liberal people to be found there). I didn't keep track of numbers, but the vast majority said not only yes, but hell yes, they'd rather see that than any higher taxation on the wealthy. There were a few who answered differently. But not many.

    Anyway, I find the article almost spot on. Most of the wealthy did not really earn their wealth, and none who did any earning earned it all on their own. Wealth is a product of society as a whole first, and only of individuals as a distant second.

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