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  • The TSA can do whateverthey want - including strip searches and body cavaty searches

    3 9.68%
  • The TSA should have limits on how invasive a search can be

    15 48.39%
  • The TSA is ineffective and should not exist at all

    11 35.48%
  • The TSA is necessary, but currently ineffective

    7 22.58%
  • The TSA is necessary and effective

    5 16.13%
  • The TSA should not exist (for reason(s) other than being ineffective)

    8 25.81%
  • The enhanced patdowns are excessive and need to be dropped.

    13 41.94%
  • The enhanced patdowns are excessive and need to be modified.

    6 19.35%
  • The enhanced patdowns are necessary to assure safety.

    3 9.68%
  • Less invasive and equally thorough methods are available.

    12 38.71%
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Thread: Opinions about the TSA and practices

  1. #61
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    I think I'm gonna give myself a hernea if I continue in these threads - having gotten out of the outright stupidity that is another discussion on this matter on CNN.

    But I will post some convenient talking points that come up in this discussion, and my opinions. [OPINIONS] These are not quotes, but just paraphrased arguments I hear all the time.

    "But it only takes [insert time here]"

    Irrelevant, time has nothing to do with this.

    "But the airlines have the right to do whatever they need to..."
    "But when you bought your ticket, you agreed to..."

    No.

    First off, to anybody who feels the need to repeat points like this, how can I take you seriously when you keep arguing things that outright ignore the clarified, and established-again-and-again point that the TSA is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY and has nothing to do with the airlines themselves? Second, when I bought a ticket, I never saw one thing about airport security [hint hint, govt. agency works there], and even so, they'd have to obey the law.

    "But what are your alternatives?"

    IMO, some use this to discount the complaints or issues - and strictly as a counter-point, a red herring since the issues with the pat down exist, regardless of whether one has a fix for them or not. No matter how much you repeat them, this does not discount, or negate the existence of issues with a specific system at all.

    "[inser some argument about making security laxer, etc]"

    We only had these measures in for what, 2 years? That leaves 80 or more years, even 8 years after 9-11, where we didn't have them, and in the U.S the most serious of them was 9-11, but that's it. Removing these patdowns, the body scanners, will not make flying any more perilous, especially with alternatives in place. And guess what? They - the scanners specifically - have a flaws - the current ones so far, anyways. Things in body cavities [rectal, oral, etc] don't get picked up, nor do things in fat folds necessarily.

    "So you support racial profiling?"

    Strawman - that was never argued. Alternatives could be, for example, bomb sniffing dogs, making sure the agents are properly trained, they and any non-passenger are properly screened... logically implemented behavior profiling by properly trained people.

    Just because race is a means of profiling doesn't mean that all profiling is racial - there is, for example, as I mentioned before, behavioral profiling, which IS a key component in Israeli security if I remember correctly.

    "I have nothing to hide."

    - Humans desire privacy
    - Privacy is exercised consciously and subconsciously all the time
    - Privacy is a form of concealment
    - You are human

    therefore
    in the absolute sense of the term, since I am responding to a statement made with an absolute, you can not have "Nothing" to hide - and "hiding" things is not bad inherently - that's the whole concept of, *derp*, PRIVACY *facepalm*

    "But who cares if they see you naked?"

    I DO you putz - because I control who sees me naked, and there has never ben enough grounds yet, evidence, to me, to show that the administrative search right at the airport extends THAT FAR to begin with.

    "But the TSA is not breaking the law"

    Says who? It's still trundling through the legal system - for the now, the only reason the scanners are still legal are because of the patdown alternatives, but the more legal issues that sprout up over the pat downs, the more both aspects will be scrutinized.

    If this were a private citizen, or a private company, I'm sure they'd be arrested - listened to people talk on Hannity about this last year or so - COPS came on the phonelines and said they'd be FIRED if not ARRESTED or INVESTIGATED for doing what the TSA gets away with.

    "But the scanners can not save or store the images in any way whatsoever"

    [inserts long winded, detailed, and verifiable explanation about how this is impossible based on computer system architecture theory and practice, followed by a conundrum of deleting evidence, and then needing it if something happened because they missed something]

    "But the images are not detailed"

    Usually, not always, it seems like the ones arguing this base their opinion based on images the DHS, TSA release, which look like the brightness / contrast have been meddled with. Find me some unmodified, unaltered, full resolution images, then we'll se WHICH side is right - the side saying they're detailed, or the one that isn't - I mean, logically, they;d have to have some degree of precision the images we DO see don't show, right?
    Last edited by Travelsonic; 09-20-11 at 08:27 PM.
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  2. #62
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    not sure I can answer the poll but ill answer your question.

    Ill give you some opinions and facts.

    Opinions:
    "In general" I dont like the TSA, the need for them and their policies
    I think its sad we need the TSA
    If a person wants debate their policies vs effectiveness have at it.
    I dont like the poorly trained personnel

    Facts:
    no laws are broken by TSA Policies, they do NOT violate the constitution.


    Conclusion:

    While Im not a fan, I fly frequently and am not phased by the TSA, they dont bother me and Id rather have them than not. Before, during and after my searches I think about them very little beyond conversations that I come across.
    Just wanted to reply to myself so I can thank people for the likes they gave me and that the facts obviously needed repeating.

    Evrytime a TSA thread comes up theres always about 3-4 lost souls that falsly claim the the constitution is being violated LMAO and yet they can NEVER proove it ever. They never offer ONE shred of evidence that any amendments are being broken.

    The dramatic dishonest words like kiddie porn, rape, molestation, child abuse, sexual assault etc etc

    then make false dramatic parallels like I guess its ok for perverts to touch your mother, sister, kids or If i touched you in public like that Id get arrested or maybe you should get pat downs to leave your house and drive your car LMAO

    Its all appeals to emotion and pure dishonesty, thats why theres no proof of their false claims. It based off of EMOTION and NOT LIKING the TSA and not waiting to HAVE the TSA which is ALL FINE by me. Complain about them, think they suck, want them gone etc etc I dont care but as soon as you say it violates the constitution you are wasting your time. Things you dont like should be fought with logic and facts not fantasy.

    If someone can please prove TSA Policies violate the constitution.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    If someone can please prove TSA Policies violate the constitution.
    Well the Constitution prohibits "unreasonable search and seizure." Can we agree that this is, at the very least, search and seizure, and that the dispute is over whether this is "unreasonable"? If so, I would submit that what distinguishes an unreasonable search and seizure from a reasonable search and seizure, is due process. In order for the police to search someone, they need to obtain either a warrant, probable cause, or consent. Are we still in agreement?

    So if you like, forget all the stuff about whether *you* would get arrested if you touched someone like this in another circumstance. Instead, ask yourself this: Would it be lawful for a *police officer* to search someone like this in any other circumstance, without a warrant, probable cause, or consent? I can't think of any such circumstance. The police can't rummage through your bags or randomly frisk you on the street. So what makes the situation at an airport different?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-20-11 at 10:29 PM.
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well the Constitution prohibits "unreasonable search and seizure." Can we agree that this is, at the very least, search and seizure, and that the dispute is over whether this is "unreasonable"? If so, I would submit that what distinguishes an unreasonable search and seizure from a reasonable search and seizure, is due process. In order for the police to search someone, they need to obtain either a warrant, probable cause, or consent....
    The TSA will not and cannot force you to undergo a pat-down, body-scan, or have your bags searched.

    But if you refuse to have these searches done, you cannot board the plane.

    See? No one is being forced to do anything they don't want to do.

  5. #65
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    The TSA will not and cannot force you to undergo a pat-down, body-scan, or have your bags searched.

    But if you refuse to have these searches done, you cannot board the plane.

    See? No one is being forced to do anything they don't want to do.
    Goalpost shifting: 1st: The issue is not with bag searches, and not with screening all together, but the methods, and 2, you are forced to submit yourself to this government intrusion to use a PRIVATE service. On that alone my BS meter is off the charts.
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  6. #66
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Goalpost shifting: 1st: The issue is not with bag searches, and not with screening all together, but the methods, and 2, you are forced to submit yourself to this government intrusion to use a PRIVATE service. On that alone my BS meter is off the charts.
    a private service that is under Federal authority & regulation.

    inter-state travel...inter-state commerce. get it?

    don't want to be searched? don't fly a plane.


  7. #67
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    The TSA will not and cannot force you to undergo a pat-down, body-scan, or have your bags searched.

    But if you refuse to have these searches done, you cannot board the plane.

    See? No one is being forced to do anything they don't want to do.
    So I'm free to refuse my pat down, be refused admission to the plane and then kayak to Hawaii to see my granddaughter and her kids.... this is so good to know.
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    So I'm free to refuse my pat down, be refused admission to the plane and then kayak to Hawaii to see my granddaughter and her kids.... this is so good to know.
    yes, you can. it is your right to refuse the patdown and scan. but you can go no further through the airport.

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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But what's "elevated threats" Haven't we been at the same color ever since this happened? Habeas Corpus can be suspended during war, but that requires a declaration of war to officially be at war. Another thing we should probably re-institute since it seemed to help limit the wars we got into.
    We are in "war." War on terror. As much BS as it sounds, thats what they call it. It seems more like "hide and go seek of terror."

  10. #70
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    The TSA will not and cannot force you to undergo a pat-down, body-scan, or have your bags searched.

    But if you refuse to have these searches done, you cannot board the plane.
    Not 100% accurate. Once you step in line they're going to search you even if you change your mind. But more importantly:

    See? No one is being forced to do anything they don't want to do.
    OK, so you're arguing that people are implicitly consenting to a search simply by buying the ticket and entering the security line in order to get on their plane, correct? If that's the case, would you be willing to apply that same principle to other spheres of life? For example: "The police won't randomly frisk you, if you stay in your house and don't walk down a public sidewalk." Or: "The police won't listen to your telephone calls without a warrant, if you simply don't use the phone." Or: "The police won't search your car without a warrant or probable cause, as long as you don't drive."

    If you are not OK with those things, what is qualitatively different about those situations versus the airport security line?
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