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  • The TSA can do whateverthey want - including strip searches and body cavaty searches

    3 9.68%
  • The TSA should have limits on how invasive a search can be

    15 48.39%
  • The TSA is ineffective and should not exist at all

    11 35.48%
  • The TSA is necessary, but currently ineffective

    7 22.58%
  • The TSA is necessary and effective

    5 16.13%
  • The TSA should not exist (for reason(s) other than being ineffective)

    8 25.81%
  • The enhanced patdowns are excessive and need to be dropped.

    13 41.94%
  • The enhanced patdowns are excessive and need to be modified.

    6 19.35%
  • The enhanced patdowns are necessary to assure safety.

    3 9.68%
  • Less invasive and equally thorough methods are available.

    12 38.71%
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Thread: Opinions about the TSA and practices

  1. #101
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by tcmartin10 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs View Post
    So I'm free to refuse my pat down, be refused admission to the plane and then kayak to Hawaii to see my granddaughter and her kids.... this is so good to know.
    We are in "war." War on terror. As much BS as it sounds, thats what they call it. It seems more like "hide and go seek of terror."
    And compelling an old lady to submit to sexual molestation in order to be allowed to visit her grandkids and great-grandkids makes us all safer, right?
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  2. #102
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    if the police have a reasonable suspicion that you may have an ABC weapon, they have the right to search you on the street or in your car, without a warrant.
    Yes, that is true.

    And if a TSA agent has reasonable cause to suspect that a particular passenger may be carrying a weapon, and intending to use it to harm other passengers, then he may search that passenger.

    A police officer has no authority whatsoever to detain or search anyone for whom he does not have specific probable cause to believe that the subject is up to something illegal.

    Neither does a TSA agent.

    The Fourth Amendment applies exactly the same in both cases.
    Last edited by Bob Blaylock; 09-21-11 at 04:17 AM. Reason: A man without a forklift is nothing. May the Forks be with you.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  3. #103
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    well for one thing, walking down the street does not put you under the jurisdiction of the Federal govt., due to the Commerce Clause.

    look, we can't have the police checking all 8 million people walking around NYC. it would be impossible to do.

    but we CAN check everyone going to board a place. a man with a gun on a plane can end up killing 10,000 people. a man with a gun on the streets of Brooklyn can't kill 10,000 people.

    got it?
    10,000 people weren't killed on 9/11, so where the hell are you getting this number? The cockpit door are now reinforced, you cannot get in anymore. It's over my friend, the most they can do is blown up a plane in mid-air if they had a bomb. That couldn't kill 10,000 people.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  4. #104
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    Oh, so you're saying that people implicitly consent to TSA searches because they know how it works and they've come to expect it? So then in your view, there's not necessarily a constitutional reason why it would be illegitimate for a cop to randomly frisk someone on the sidewalk...it's just that the government hasn't yet made it clear that that's what people should expect when they walk down the sidewalk, and therefore there's no implied consent (yet).

    So by this logic, the power of the state to frisk people on the street is just a marketing problem for the government to overcome, rather than an inherent constitutional problem. What this boils down to is that you think that searches and seizures are legitimate simply because the state performs them on a regular basis...so if the state acted even MORE invasively then the Constitution would give it more leeway.
    Start walking up the White House lawn and see if you don't get the Habib treatment.

    Searches like this are based on magnitude of threat. "Walking down the road" does not count, but if you're in the air with hundreds of innocent travelers or on the property of the leader of the free world, you're going to get watched a little more carefully, and rightfully so.

    Damn you people today. You think everything is a right.

    Get searched or get out. Nobody said choice had to involve multiple favorable alternatives.

  5. #105
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    10,000 people weren't killed on 9/11, so where the hell are you getting this number?...
    how many people were in the WTC when it was first hit?

    how many people are at an average baseball game?

    getting the picture? thanks.

  6. #106
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    I think I'm gonna give myself a hernea if I continue in these threads - having gotten out of the outright stupidity that is another discussion on this matter on CNN.

    But I will post some convenient talking points that come up in this discussion, and my opinions. [OPINIONS] These are not quotes, but just paraphrased arguments I hear all the time.

    "But it only takes [insert time here]"

    Irrelevant, time has nothing to do with this.

    "But the airlines have the right to do whatever they need to..."
    "But when you bought your ticket, you agreed to..."

    No.

    First off, to anybody who feels the need to repeat points like this, how can I take you seriously when you keep arguing things that outright ignore the clarified, and established-again-and-again point that the TSA is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY and has nothing to do with the airlines themselves? Second, when I bought a ticket, I never saw one thing about airport security [hint hint, govt. agency works there], and even so, they'd have to obey the law.

    "But what are your alternatives?"

    IMO, some use this to discount the complaints or issues - and strictly as a counter-point, a red herring since the issues with the pat down exist, regardless of whether one has a fix for them or not. No matter how much you repeat them, this does not discount, or negate the existence of issues with a specific system at all.

    "[inser some argument about making security laxer, etc]"

    We only had these measures in for what, 2 years? That leaves 80 or more years, even 8 years after 9-11, where we didn't have them, and in the U.S the most serious of them was 9-11, but that's it. Removing these patdowns, the body scanners, will not make flying any more perilous, especially with alternatives in place. And guess what? They - the scanners specifically - have a flaws - the current ones so far, anyways. Things in body cavities [rectal, oral, etc] don't get picked up, nor do things in fat folds necessarily.

    "So you support racial profiling?"

    Strawman - that was never argued. Alternatives could be, for example, bomb sniffing dogs, making sure the agents are properly trained, they and any non-passenger are properly screened... logically implemented behavior profiling by properly trained people.

    Just because race is a means of profiling doesn't mean that all profiling is racial - there is, for example, as I mentioned before, behavioral profiling, which IS a key component in Israeli security if I remember correctly.

    "I have nothing to hide."

    - Humans desire privacy
    - Privacy is exercised consciously and subconsciously all the time
    - Privacy is a form of concealment
    - You are human

    therefore
    in the absolute sense of the term, since I am responding to a statement made with an absolute, you can not have "Nothing" to hide - and "hiding" things is not bad inherently - that's the whole concept of, *derp*, PRIVACY *facepalm*

    "But who cares if they see you naked?"

    I DO you putz - because I control who sees me naked, and there has never ben enough grounds yet, evidence, to me, to show that the administrative search right at the airport extends THAT FAR to begin with.

    "But the TSA is not breaking the law"

    Says who? It's still trundling through the legal system - for the now, the only reason the scanners are still legal are because of the patdown alternatives, but the more legal issues that sprout up over the pat downs, the more both aspects will be scrutinized.

    If this were a private citizen, or a private company, I'm sure they'd be arrested - listened to people talk on Hannity about this last year or so - COPS came on the phonelines and said they'd be FIRED if not ARRESTED or INVESTIGATED for doing what the TSA gets away with.

    "But the scanners can not save or store the images in any way whatsoever"

    [inserts long winded, detailed, and verifiable explanation about how this is impossible based on computer system architecture theory and practice, followed by a conundrum of deleting evidence, and then needing it if something happened because they missed something]

    "But the images are not detailed"

    Usually, not always, it seems like the ones arguing this base their opinion based on images the DHS, TSA release, which look like the brightness / contrast have been meddled with. Find me some unmodified, unaltered, full resolution images, then we'll se WHICH side is right - the side saying they're detailed, or the one that isn't - I mean, logically, they;d have to have some degree of precision the images we DO see don't show, right?
    You had some interesting points in here. Though since others appear to be shying away from my question, I hope you will answer it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    I'm waiting for the underlying point to be addressed. Clearly there are many who appreciate the Israeli form of security, yet forcing people to answer their questions also violates constitutional rights, does it not? And if one refuses to have their bags scanned should they be removed to a back room for further interrogation?
    I am waiting for a "legal" alternative. Using bomb detecting dogs could be a part of an alternative though I'd be concerned about their ability to remain consistent and not be fooled, not to mention keeping them away from people who are allergic to dogs. And if a dog smells something in your bag, should the TSA get a warrant to search it?
    "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, it to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution." —John Adams

  7. #107
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    You had some interesting points in here. Though since others appear to be shying away from my question, I hope you will answer it...



    I am waiting for a "legal" alternative. Using bomb detecting dogs could be a part of an alternative though I'd be concerned about their ability to remain consistent and not be fooled, not to mention keeping them away from people who are allergic to dogs. And if a dog smells something in your bag, should the TSA get a warrant to search it?
    From my understanding from a few friends who have a history in dealing with illegal substances.... Cayenne pepper can be used to hide drugs. If a dog gets a whiff of this pepper, their nose is useless for two weeks. I assume it would be the same with bombs.

  8. #108
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Get searched or get out. Nobody said choice had to involve multiple favorable alternatives.
    Rather authoritarian there, eh? I do not believe the enhanced search measures which at the very best are questionable have driven us to any higher state of "safe" than we already were. I think we've overreacted and have done so through the use of government force and on that front we should be exceedingly careful on what we authorize. We're not really gaining anything, so it's not worth the use of government force.

    Besides, if I were a terrorist, I would just wait for a heavy traffic day in airports, coordinate with several others at other major airports, and bomb the TSA line. Kill hundreds, and there's no security in the TSA line.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Well, the problem is that someone's liberty may be another one's authority. In this case, private enterprise has the "liberty" to have its passengers checked for safety reasons, and since it is a non-public sector, I would endorse it. I think allowing a business to conduct policies that prevent catastrophic consequences is a right. I think a passenger wanting a flight under only their conditions no matter what is a privilege.

    I'll defend a right over a privilege any day.

  10. #110
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    Re: Opinions about the TSA and practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Well, the problem is that someone's liberty may be another one's authority. In this case, private enterprise has the "liberty" to have its passengers checked for safety reasons, and since it is a non-public sector, I would endorse it.
    Ultimately irrelevant though in the context of how things work now at airport checkpoints because the TSA is whom is doing these security checks, and they are a government agency.
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