View Poll Results: Should the U.S. start controlling our population?

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  • Yes

    93 65.96%
  • No

    48 34.04%
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Thread: Population Control

  1. #11
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Those have different causes though. In developing countries, there are several reasons that a family might choose to have more kids: 1) Infant mortality is higher. Families have additional children to hedge against the tragic reality that some of them will not survive into adulthood. 2) The opportunity cost is lower. If families aren't able to earn high incomes anyway, then their time simply isn't that valuable and they aren't missing out on much by spending their time raising kids. 3) Among subsistence farmers, children are a financial asset rather than a financial liability as they are here. An extra child means an extra worker to bring in income for the family, rather than an extra mouth to feed. 4) In some societies, birth control is unavailable, unaffordable, socially taboo, and/or completely unknown. Additionally, women may not have the same freedom that men do to pursue a career, and are expected to raise kids.
    I agree with this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Among the poor in the US, #1 and #3 don't really apply. #2 does in a way...the opportunity cost is lower for low-income people to raise extra kids, but it's still a lot higher than it is for a poor person in the developing world. I think the big issue among America's poor is #4 as it relates to birth control. Many people don't have birth control, don't really understand how it works or how effective it is, or simply choose not to use it for whatever reason.
    OK, I am going to need the studies that have shown this to be true - I'm not saying that its not a part of the problem, but that it's not the only part of the problem - as I stated in my other post, there is evidence that people (unconsciously) hedge their bets during hardship in order to increase their chances of having grandchildren, great grandchildren and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I think that's questionable, at least as it relates to the US. Merely putting people in a worse financial situation would not make them unlearn what they know about birth control, or cause it to no longer be available. That's more of a cultural thing then anything else, stemming from long-term poverty. From a global perspective, another economic downturn might or might not cause an increase in birth rates, depending on what policies the governments in question pursued. There is no reason that a recession should inevitably result in higher birth rates.
    You are right, it would not make them "unlearn" birth control - however our instincts are funny things (see above)

  2. #12
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Yeah, I suppose you are right for now.

    However, while it is currently slowing, it may not continue so. What about the future? Do you think there will be an equal (or close to equal) ratio of people dying to people being born? Studies have shown that when families are in times of hardship, they have more children. For example, countries that aren't developed have more children as do the poor in the U.S. and so on.

    If things were to get worse financially speaking for the vast majority of the population, we may see a rise in birth rates again.

    What would your position on it be if population proved to be a problem?
    Were it to become a problem, though the reasons for families having more children in undeveloped countries has no application in the U.S., of course I couldn't sanction population control. Government control of who, when and how many children a U.S. couple could have, would and should be challenged in courts as an infringement on our rights. That's not even taking into account how such laws have a unintentional consequences, as in China. Their one-family, one-child law is a disaster.
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  3. #13
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    I agree with what Kandahar said. Population controls are never the answer. If you do that, you end up like China. The answer is reducing poverty and improving education. Anyway, we're nowhere near having a population problem in the US yet. We're up to our ears in food.
    Its more of a hypothetical question that I have found most people dodge by saying its not a problem now (which it may not be). However, I want to see what people actually think in terms of "what if" - what if it were to become a problem? What if immigration were to become a problem? We all know both are plausible .. so what would we do? There is nothing wrong with considering solutions to problems that have not already been realized. It shows good character to be able to face hard problems head on.

  4. #14
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Were it to become a problem, though the reasons for families having more children in undeveloped countries has no application in the U.S., of course I couldn't sanction population control. Government control of who, when and how many children a U.S. couple could have, would and should be challenged in courts as an infringement on our rights. That's not even taking into account how such laws have a unintentional consequences, as in China. Their one-family, one-child law is a disaster.
    I agree, not pretty ... but what if it were a problem, what if we had no other way? Do you think that we'll find a way to live on other planets? I am looking for "down to earth" solutions (forgive the pun).

  5. #15
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Its more of a hypothetical question that I have found most people dodge by saying its not a problem now (which it may not be). However, I want to see what people actually think in terms of "what if" - what if it were to become a problem? What if immigration were to become a problem? We all know both are plausible .. so what would we do? There is nothing wrong with considering solutions to problems that have not already been realized. It shows good character to be able to face hard problems head on.
    Well, I'll stick with my original answers as far as birthrates go. Education and eliminating poverty are always better than trying to legislate babies. If immigration were to become so high, it actually caused overpopulation? Well, it would have to get really high for that to happen. If we were really getting so many immigrants that we didn't have a place to put all of them, I guess we wouldn't have any option but to crack down on immigration. That would at least reduce it to somewhere around current levels. I don't think we'll ever be able to get much lower than current levels, though, not while the US-Mexico border is the most unequal in the world. We have a very long way to go before immigration becomes a problem in that way, though.
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Well, I'll stick with my original answers as far as birthrates go. Education and eliminating poverty are always better than trying to legislate babies. If immigration were to become so high, it actually caused overpopulation? Well, it would have to get really high for that to happen. If we were really getting so many immigrants that we didn't have a place to put all of them, I guess we wouldn't have any option but to crack down on immigration. That would at least reduce it to somewhere around current levels. I don't think we'll ever be able to get much lower than current levels, though, not while the US-Mexico border is the most unequal in the world. We have a very long way to go before immigration becomes a problem in that way, though.
    Do you believe in the right to land/property (enough that one person could live off) at birth or do you believe we humans can claim land in our own name (for the sake of argument lest just keep this within the United States)?

    You also did not address my concern regarding living wages ... ?

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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Should the U.S. start controlling our population?

    Is there a need for population control? If not, what evidence do you have that there is not? Will there be a need in the near future?

    If so to what degree? I.E. How many children should be allowed? Should control be by economic status or equal to all families?

    I want to get a sense of where people are on this topic
    No, there should be no population controls.

    Now I believe in universal birth control for both men and women, and I believe that people should have to get a 2-year degree degree on parenting subsidized by the state before they're allowed to raise a child.

    But that isn't the same thing since everybody will have the opportunity to get birth control and to be educated on parenting a child.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  8. #18
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Do you believe in the right to land/property (enough that one person could live off) at birth or do you believe we humans can claim land in our own name (for the sake of argument lest just keep this within the United States)?

    You also did not address my concern regarding living wages ... ?
    I must have missed that bit. I do believe in private property. Giving people enough land to live off of isn't really practical, and it implies that people should be farmers. I believe everyone should have the opportunity to work for a good wage, enough to support a family on. How much work that actually is depends on how much work is needed to keep society running, and how many other workers there are available.
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  9. #19
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    I must have missed that bit. I do believe in private property. Giving people enough land to live off of isn't really practical, and it implies that people should be farmers. I believe everyone should have the opportunity to work for a good wage, enough to support a family on. How much work that actually is depends on how much work is needed to keep society running, and how many other workers there are available.
    OK, well there's no point in arguing more about population because we don't agree on that point and it is important in my mind. There should be enough land for all of us to live off .. this could mean through modern ways, no man/woman should be born without it. Ownership of land without allowing the government to own some chunk of it to pass on to new generations is immoral and only encourages hoarding. Similarly, I believe all people should have a right to equal education and equal wealth when they are born ... anything else would not be equal opportunity. This still allows for competition as whoever is the wisest with their wealth, does the best. I of course am also for social safety nets (which likely not be needed to the extent they are now if the above conditions were met).

    I am sure you can see by now how this could affect one's view on population.
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 09-16-11 at 03:49 AM.

  10. #20
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    Re: Population Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    OK, well there's no point in arguing more about population because we don't agree on that point and it is important in my mind. There should be enough land for all of us to live off .. this could mean through modern ways, no man/woman should be born without it. Ownership of land without allowing the government to own some chunk of it to pass on to new generations is immoral and only encourages hoarding. Similarly, I believe all people should have a right to equal education and equal wealth when they are born ... anything else would not be equal opportunity. This still allows for competition as whoever is the wisest with their wealth, does the best. I of course am also for social safety nets (which likely not be needed to the extent they are now if the above conditions were met).

    I am sure you can see by now how this could affect one's view on population.
    Equal education, yes, absolutely. Health care should also be a guarantee. Wealth itself isn't going to be equal unless you either have an entirely communist state or you raise babies communally, neither of which I support. The thing with giving people land is that there isn't enough of it for what you have in mind. I'm a strong supporter of vertical urbanization as a solution to suburban sprawl, so that kind of makes giving people land impractical. In terms of social safety nets, I'm only in favor of traditional welfare for seniors and the disabled. We'll make sure you get a good job, but you actually need to work if you expect the government to support you. For people who manage to screw that up, I had an idea where people can basically voluntarily put themselves in prison, which would involved labor gangs, until they get their **** straightened out.
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