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Socialism could have succeeded?

Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

  • Don't know

    Votes: 3 3.8%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 3 3.8%
  • Absolutely

    Votes: 9 11.4%
  • I think it could

    Votes: 11 13.9%
  • I think it couldn't

    Votes: 16 20.3%
  • No way

    Votes: 37 46.8%

  • Total voters
    79
People are always going to "cheat." But it's only called "cheating" when you're living under an authoritarian regime. When you're free it's called "capitalism."

I thought it was called crime in which you can swindle and do billions in financial damage and go scott free or hangout at the spa with bars in the windows for a couple years. silly me.
 
I love how the anarcho-syndicalist's big success story is a few misguided Catalans who unwittingly paved the way for Franco.

It wasn't just Catalonia. Again; we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people, in a relatively modern, technological society, over a period of years. The Spanish Anarchists' didn't 'unwittingly pave the way' for anything. They were victims of unprovoked aggression by the Axis powers.
 
Gipper said:
Tell you what...I'll be fair. You show me any country even remotely successful on any level with any structure remotely related to libertarian socialism, and I'll retract my "all socialism is authoritarian" belief that I give ad nauseum.

Dumb post is dumb. History isn't a set of experiments. Gipper apparently likes taking an ahistorical approach...to history. :roll:

NGNM85 said:
Since you asked; the best, and largest example would be the Anarchist dominated areas of Revolutionary Spain, like Catalonia. It was a more-or-less fully realized, modern, technologically sophisticated Libertarian Socialist society of hundreds of thousands, over a period of several years. I’d also mention the Ukrainian Makhnovischina. Smaller examples would include the Israeli Kibbutzim, Denmark’s Free Christiania, and the Mexican Zapatistas.

Aaaaaaaaaaand our resident anarchist takes the bait. Even dumber.
 
I thought it was called crime in which you can swindle and do billions in financial damage and go scott free or hangout at the spa with bars in the windows for a couple years. silly me.

Swindling is a crime, and such crime is not permitted in a free market. Socialism doesn't just prevent crimes like swindling, it prevents the freedom of people to trade. Trade itself becomes "cheating" in a socialist-authoritarian regime (which is, of course, redundant, because all socialism is authoritarian).
 
Aaaaaaaaaaand our resident anarchist takes the bait. Even dumber.

I didn't 'take the bait', his post was genuine, albiet, deeply misguided, nor do I have any illusions about disabusing him of his misconceptions.
 
Swindling is a crime, and such crime is not permitted in a free market. Socialism doesn't just prevent crimes like swindling, it prevents the freedom of people to trade. Trade itself becomes "cheating" in a socialist-authoritarian regime (which is, of course, redundant, because all socialism is authoritarian).

A functioning socialist system would make such trade unnecessary. Or maybe it should be forbidden given that resources should be strategically allocated by the state. This socialism thing... so complicated.
 
NGMN85 said:
I didn't 'take the bait', his post was genuine

Sure you did, like you always do, you buy into their terms of the discussion, i.e. a completely ahistorical dichotomy completely divorced from reality.

Guy Incognito said:
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Swindling is a crime, and such crime is not permitted in a free market. Socialism doesn't just prevent crimes like swindling, it prevents the freedom of people to trade. Trade itself becomes "cheating" in a socialist-authoritarian regime (which is, of course, redundant, because all socialism is authoritarian).

The 8 hour work day is oppressive because it hinders the choice of workers to work as much as they want to support their family!
 
I thought it was called crime in which you can swindle and do billions in financial damage and go scott free or hangout at the spa with bars in the windows for a couple years. silly me.

For libertarians, "freedom" means "freedom to cheat and steal"
 
Swindling is a crime, and such crime is not permitted in a free market. Socialism doesn't just prevent crimes like swindling, it prevents the freedom of people to trade. Trade itself becomes "cheating" in a socialist-authoritarian regime (which is, of course, redundant, because all socialism is authoritarian).

"Free markets" are a fantasy. They never existed and never will
 
sangha said:
For libertarians, "freedom" means "freedom to cheat and steal"

Do you think the freedom of speech only extends to speech you agree with?
 
Do you think the freedom of speech only extends to speech you agree with?

My words were clear, but if you have a problem with any of them, just tell me which one and I will post a link to dictionary.com
 
Sure you did, like you always do, you buy into their terms of the discussion, i.e. a completely ahistorical dichotomy completely divorced from reality.

This is an ideological difference. I am not a Marxist. I don't subscribe to Historical Materialism.
 
This is an ideological difference. I am not a Marxist. I don't subscribe to Historical Materialism.

It has nothing to do with historical materialism, it has to do with being entirely ahistoric. History isn't a set of experiments conducted in complete isolation, this is common sense, yet both yourself and everyone you are responding to can't seem to wrap your heads around that obvious fact.
 
A functioning socialist system would make such trade unnecessary. Or maybe it should be forbidden given that resources should be strategically allocated by the state. This socialism thing... so complicated.

Has a socialistic state ever functioned without trade? Perhaps this theory only succeeds in theory? Obviously it's good for a nation to have some socialistic elemets but as they say too much of a good thing ca turn into a really bad thing.

Sure you did, like you always do, you buy into their terms of the discussion, i.e. a completely ahistorical dichotomy completely divorced from reality.

The 8 hour work day is oppressive because it hinders the choice of workers to work as much as they want to support their family!

Can I have a book or a website containing your terms of discussion? That would help a tremendous bit. If not then how does one know what you mean when you communicate? Where can I find this key stone of lore?

Well, you can't always get what you want. Why should a worker decide how many hours he'll work regardless of his boss's opinion?


For libertarians, "freedom" means "freedom to cheat and steal"

"Free markets" are a fantasy. They never existed and never will

You're going to have to back these statements up with evidence.

Do you think the freedom of speech only extends to speech you agree with?

Good question. Though I'm curious if that could apply to everyone.. Then again, I haven't seen the right try to control others with political correctness so...

My words were clear, but if you have a problem with any of them, just tell me which one and I will post a link to dictionary.com

Not words, but statements. The statements you have to back up.

This is an ideological difference. I am not a Marxist. I don't subscribe to Historical Materialism.

Imho you should make a thread encapsulating your comprehensive political beliefs and link it into your sig. That way there'd be no more confusion.

When commies fight, everyone wins.

Sarcasm for the win. This is similar to that one statement I heard in the past that communism is the most concentrated form of freedom.
 
It has nothing to do with historical materialism, it has to do with being entirely ahistoric. History isn't a set of experiments conducted in complete isolation, this is common sense, yet both yourself and everyone you are responding to can't seem to wrap your heads around that obvious fact.

That's good, because Historical Materialism is fundamentally flawed.

On it's face, this appears to be an obvious and banal truism. What it has to do with anything escapes me. Perhaps there was some post I missed.

NGMN85 isn't a commie...
[/INDENT]

It depends entirely on context. In terms of advocating a stateless, classless society, essentially, the final stage in Marx's eschatology, that's very nearly ideal. In that sense; I am, technically, a communist. However; I never self-apply this designation, and prefer not to be categorized as such.
 
Has a socialistic state ever functioned without trade? Perhaps this theory only succeeds in theory? Obviously it's good for a nation to have some socialistic elemets but as they say too much of a good thing ca turn into a really bad thing.

Socialism does not necessarily preclude the existence of markets. Furthermore; it is entirely possible that a Libertarian Federation could trade with other economic actors, such as Nation-States.

Can I have a book or a website containing your terms of discussion? That would help a tremendous bit. If not then how does one know what you mean when you communicate? Where can I find this key stone of lore?

We've got a number of individuals, here, representing several different ideologies. You might want to read the Wikipedia articles on Anarchism, and Marxism, as a start. (As well as the article on the differences, and points of conflict between Anarchism and Marxism.) I could also recommend some basic, introductory texts, like The Communist Manifesto, or the Anarchist FAQ, etc. You can also Google any terms ou don’t understand, or just ask. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m usually quite agreeable to elaborating or clarifying things.

Well, you can't always get what you want. Why should a worker decide how many hours he'll work regardless of his boss's opinion?

Under Libertarian Socialism private property doesn’t exist, and there are balanced job complexes, so there is no pure, elite, managerial caste. There would be a workers’ council, which would represent the specific facility, which would be interlinked with broader workers’ councils with broader decisions encompassing a multitude of enterprises. Decisions would be made democratically, with bigger decisions requiring a vote by a higher council, or a broader majority, whereas smaller decisions would be made in-house, requiring a smaller majority, or, perhaps, made by consensus, depending on the circumstances.

You're going to have to back these statements up with evidence.

I’m not sure what evidence you seek, but if you search this historical record you’ll find very few precedents for anything like a Free Market. This is why I characterize the present economic modality, as some economists do, as ‘Corporate Mercantilism.’

Imho you should make a thread encapsulating your comprehensive political beliefs and link it into your sig. That way there'd be no more confusion.

Anarchism is a deeply misunderstood philosophy. Virtually no-one who isn’t a history major, or whatever, knows anything about it. It isn’t typically covered in the core curriculum in High School, or History survey classes. I tried to start a thread on Anarchism some time ago, with all sorts of media; articles, pamphlets, videos, etc. It didn’t generate much interest. You can check it out, here;

http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/105091-anarchist-faq.html

Sarcasm for the win. This is similar to that one statement I heard in the past that communism is the most concentrated form of freedom

'Communism' has several meanings, so context would be key. Libertarian Socialism is, absolutely, the least authoritarian model of social organization, imaginable.
 
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Explain this, please.

I'm not going to derail the thread, but probably the biggest flaw is that it's unfalsifiable, and therefore, meaningless. It's also overly economically reductionistic, and deterministic. Etc., etc. It's nine-tenths nonsense.
 
NGNM85 said:
I'm not going to derail the thread, but probably the biggest flaw is that it's unfalsifiable, and therefore, meaningless. It's also overly economically reductionistic, and deterministic. Etc., etc. It's nine-tenths nonsense.

Ah, the Popper argument. Yeah, don't bother writing it out it'd be a waste of space.
 
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