View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
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    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
  • No way

    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #401
    Advisor GreenvilleGrows's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    The system you describing is called "Anarchist communism":
    Interesting. Actually, what I was thinking is that within a larger system, small socialistic(ish) communities can exist. I wasn't thinking of having those communities be the rule of the land. For example, the Amish are somewhat socialistic in design, but they operate within a capitalistic society. Without capitalism, the Amish system would fail. You might consider Native Americans of the 1800's to be similar to anarchist communism - perhaps rightly so. But, even without having to compete for resources with outsiders, given a certain density in population and terminating territorial borders, that society was doomed, too. Everyone has to compete with someone for something once you get to a certain level of population. Compete as individuals or compete as groups, but compete you will. Anything else leads to starving, being enslaved or killed.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  2. #402
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    No! It will be incentive not to work. Why would anybody work harder when one knows that the harder s/he works the higher the taxes?
    Because it means you get to keep more money. I don't know about you, but I'd be cool with paying a higher tax rate on $5 million than a lower tax rate on $20,000.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  3. #403
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Because it means you get to keep more money. I don't know about you, but I'd be cool with paying a higher tax rate on $5 million than a lower tax rate on $20,000.
    You're missing the point here, I believe. Most people who earn $5 million per year aren't performing "work" in the sense that you seem to generalize it - as in performing "labor". They aren't "wage-earners". Many if not most of these people have their money because of entrepreneurship (creating innovative products, services or business plans) and through wise investing. And many of these same people provide opportunities for others to "work". When you take away their profit, you do INDEED take away a great deal of their incentive to be innovative or to expand. Many of these "rich" people also have much of their money tied up in capital and we can't count that portion as disposable wealth. It also greatly depends on how "highly" you're planning on taxing these "rich" folks.
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 09-24-11 at 04:53 PM.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  4. #404
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    You're missing the point here, I believe. Most people who earn $5 million per year aren't performing "work" in the sense that you seem to generalize it - as in performing "labor". They aren't "wage-earners". Many if not most of these people have their money because of entrepreneurship (creating innovative products, services or business plans) and through wise investing. And many of these same people provide opportunities for others to "work". When you take away their profit, you do INDEED take away a great deal of their incentive to be innovative or to expand. Many of these "rich" people also have much of their money tied up in capital and we can't count that portion as disposable wealth. It also greatly depends on how "highly" you're planning on taxing these "rich" folks.
    Does it really deter people from hiring more workers and expanding? It's not tax rates that make up an entrepreneur's mind whether or not to hire and expand, it's a matter of supply and demand. It is the very essence of a capitalist economy. If there is a demand for one's business, one has incentive to hire and expand. Whether you pay 29% or 39% in income tax makes little difference. Whether you pay 35% or 39% makes even less of a difference. When consumers have money to spend, there will be a higher demand for goods and services, therefore there will be more of an incentive to expand and hire more workers.

    Top margin income taxes haven't been raised since 1993, where is the prosperity? If tax rates are so crucial to job creation, why don't they correspond with job creation and employment?
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  5. #405
    blond bombshell

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    My question for people is where do you see yourself in this situation? What job are you doing and what can you aspire to do? To build a better mousetrap i need a benefit to do so i need competition to spur me on.I am pretty sure people i meet who talk of being a totally socialist country dont see themselves as being street cleaners in their picture of it.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

  6. #406
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I think socialism could have succeeded if it worked better.
    Like the Edsel?
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

  7. #407
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhail View Post
    My question for people is where do you see yourself in this situation? What job are you doing and what can you aspire to do? To build a better mousetrap i need a benefit to do so i need competition to spur me on.I am pretty sure people i meet who talk of being a totally socialist country dont see themselves as being street cleaners in their picture of it.
    There is a great paper on the subject called socialism and innovation by David Kotz from UMass.

    To answer your question, what does it matter if you are a street sweeper under a capitalist or a socialist economy? Your job will likely be identical either way, probably with the same overall compensation, in the same environment, ect. If you're a street sweeper, you're a street sweeper.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  8. #408
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    When consumers have money to spend, there will be a higher demand for goods and services, therefore there will be more of an incentive to expand and hire more workers.
    I think our recent "Stimulus" Plans have proven that this is not always the case.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  9. #409
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    There is a great paper on the subject called socialism and innovation by David Kotz from UMass.

    To answer your question, what does it matter if you are a street sweeper under a capitalist or a socialist economy? Your job will likely be identical either way, probably with the same overall compensation, in the same environment, ect. If you're a street sweeper, you're a street sweeper.
    If you're a street sweeper in a capitalist society, you might also work part time landscaping in hopes of saving enough to start your own business. Once your business gets going, you might hire a couple of your street sweeper friends and expand. If it goes well, you might provide jobs for your kids while they grow up so they can learn the family business. Once they get through college, they might diversify the family business and expand. By the time their kids are going to law school, maybe they'll be employing 1,000 people and have a plaque on the wall in the CEO's office showing the founder on his street sweeper.
    Last edited by GreenvilleGrows; 09-25-11 at 05:33 AM. Reason: spelling
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  10. #410
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Because it means you get to keep more money. I don't know about you, but I'd be cool with paying a higher tax rate on $5 million than a lower tax rate on $20,000.
    No, that's a fallacy.
    Justice is way more important than budget.

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