View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
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    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
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    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #181
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    For one thing, when a public utility is owned by the govt, it is socialist by definition.
    Can you cite that definition? I have never seen any official source define socialism in that way. Oxford doesn't definition of socialist from Oxford Dictionaries Online

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    However, I am not sure how to answer because of the way the OP's question is framed.
    You are so right, megaprogman. The OP regards to "Bolshevism" - a brand of socialism practiced in the USSR, the Eastern block and some other countries. It was doomed to fail, imho.

    This socialism business is getting really annoying. I'm seriously considering starting a new thread where we try to distinguish well the different types of socialism and end that constant confusion of terms.
    Last edited by Canell; 09-19-11 at 11:52 AM.

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Just don't include libertarian socialism or anarcho-anything. All socialism is authoritarian.

  4. #184
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    1) Your definition says nothing about economic freedom or the amt that govt spends. Your response is non-responsive
    Really, let's go through.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxford Definition
    a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
    I the meains of production is owned by the community as a whole, then economic freedom will be reduced and governmental spending will increase.
    If distribution and exchange is owned by the community as a whole it will reduce the economic freedom majorly.

    Governmental spending and economic freedom are certainly relevant to socialism.


    2) Your claim that "If it's going to prove the success of socialism, it better be socialism" is your standard. IIRC, the argument is that capitalism requires some amount of socialism to succeed
    Again, you are sidetracking. Some amount of socialism is not the same as socialism. Likewise, some amount of liberalism is not liberalism. Hence, saying that Europe show the success of socialism, is wrong because Europe is not socialist.

    Would you say US show the success of socialism?


    3) And again, no one is saying that it's 100% socialism. The argument is that it's foolish to claim that socialism is dead when a large portion of the worlds largest economies are socialized. Your claim that socialism is a complete failure is proven untrue by the facts.
    You seriously need to learn the difference between being partly socialized and socialism. It's not the same.

  5. #185
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Can you cite that definition? I have never seen any official source define socialism in that way. Oxford doesn't definition of socialist from Oxford Dictionaries Online
    Your source defines socialism as
    a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
    And the Oxford dictionary is not the end-of-all-discussion authority for all definitions. Socialism is often defined as govt ownership of the means of production, distribution, etc
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #186
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    This socialism business is getting really annoying. I'm seriously considering starting a new thread where we try to distinguish well the different types of socialism and end that constant confusion of terms.
    I would love that, but I'm sorry it's impossible. It is much easier to defend yourself if you can make the definitions. We do have the definition of socialism. Oxford dictionary tell us what the definition of socialism is. Problem is, getting socialists to use the proper definitions is a very difficult task.

  7. #187
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Really, let's go through.


    I the meains of production is owned by the community as a whole, then economic freedom will be reduced and governmental spending will increase.
    If distribution and exchange is owned by the community as a whole it will reduce the economic freedom majorly.
    Your claim is untrue. You assume freedom decreases with govt ownership. The truth is the opposite.


    Governmental spending and economic freedom are certainly relevant to socialism.
    Then why did you claim the opposite earlier in this thread



    Again, you are sidetracking. Some amount of socialism is not the same as socialism. Likewise, some amount of liberalism is not liberalism. Hence, saying that Europe show the success of socialism, is wrong because Europe is not socialist
    .

    No, you are sidetracking with straw men. No one has claimed that Europe is 100% socialist.

    Would you say US show the success of socialism?



    You seriously need to learn the difference between being partly socialized and socialism. It's not the same.
    You need to learn the difference between a straw man and arguments that have actually been made. No one has said that Europe is 100% socialist
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #188
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I would love that, but I'm sorry it's impossible. It is much easier to defend yourself if you can make the definitions. We do have the definition of socialism. Oxford dictionary tell us what the definition of socialism is. Problem is, getting socialists to use the proper definitions is a very difficult task.
    No, getting anyone to use YOUR narrow definition is an impossible task. The rest of us recognize that socialism comes in many forms.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #189
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your source defines socialism as

    a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    And the Oxford dictionary is not the end-of-all-discussion authority for all definitions. Socialism is often defined as govt ownership of the means of production, distribution, etc
    Socialism is a political theory, and is not an adjective.

    I think you meant socialist which can be an adjective. Oxford definition say
    Quote Originally Posted by oxford definition
    adhering to or based on the principles of socialism:the history of socialist movement
    The principle of socialism is not just government take over, hence oxford definition disagree. I never said oxford definition is the perfect source, but I have yet to see any official sources from you.
    Last edited by Camlon; 09-19-11 at 12:15 PM.

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Oxford dictionary tell us what the definition of socialism is.
    Well, in this case I'm afraid they never had socialism in the USSR. The majority of decisions were made in Moscow, i.e. such a centralized system is not socialism (which presumes local government by the community, right?) according to that definition.

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