View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
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    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
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    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #171
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Point out where I said it was, please.

    And then respond to my argument in a proper manner. What is socialism if it's not government regulation and government spending? Where the limit of socialism is, is open to debate. But a country that has pretty much the same government spending and the same amount of regulations as the US, is not socialist.

    What I think you are doing, is to determine socialism after success instead of policy. For instance income inequality, poverty rate, governmental services offered. Socialism is not defined by success. It is defined by policy. Which is an economic system in which the means of production are either state owned or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively.
    You'll get the answer to your posts they garner by their own merit.

    What I think you are doing, is to determine socialism after success instead of policy.
    What I think you are doing, is assuming what I am doing.

  2. #172
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    What makes it unsocialist?
    Socialism means commonly owned and controlled, not just owned and controlled by employees or their representative (ie the union)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Which makes it impossible in America due to turnover. This isn't Japan where someone gets a job and stays there until the day he dies.

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your question about what socialism is has been asked and answered several times in this thread.
    I know what socialism is. In fact better than most socialists, who claim to be experts because they have read a book from Noam Chomsky. When we discuss definitions, I only use official definitions.

    However, that's not the reason I asked. I asked, because I want him to explain how European countries are socialists. I have not gotten no response yet, apart from standard response. In fact I must say it is extremely difficult to get socialists to respond to anything they feel are uncomfortable. Had I said, socialism causes income inequality. I would probably get a long response, but if I mention some of the difficulties I just get insults and standard responses back.

    Read your last sentence. In the countries named, a large part of the economy is socialized. No one here has claimed that they are 100% socialist.
    So US is socialist, since large parts of the economy is socialized? Which country is not socialist under that definition?
    Last edited by Camlon; 09-19-11 at 11:20 AM.

  5. #175
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    I know what socialism is. In fact better than most socialists, who claim to be experts because they have read a book from Noam Chomsky. When we discuss definitions, I only use official definitions.

    However, that's not the reason I asked. I asked, because I want him to explain how European countries are socialists. I have not gotten no response yet, apart from standard response. In fact I must say it is extremely difficult to get socialists to respond to anything they feel are uncomfortable. Had I said, socialism causes income inequality.I would probably get a long response, but if I mention some of the difficulties I just get insults and standard responses back.


    So US is socialist, since large parts of the economy is socialized? Which country is not socialist?
    If you know what socialism is, then why are you posting data about "economic freedom" and govt spending?

    And, as it has been mentioned several times in this thread, a large portion of the US economy is socialized

    And again, no one is claiming that these nations are 100% socialist. We're just pointing out the absurdity of those who argue that socialism is dead or unworkable when a large portion of the worlds largest economies are, in fact, socialized
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #176
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha
    And, as it has been mentioned several times in this thread, a large portion of the US economy is socialized
    People seem to say this a lot and I am not sure why. A command structure designed to allocate for industries with market failures is not socialist. Just because something is a public utility doesn't mean it's owned by the public. It just means that a centralized bureaucracy is required to run it to counterbalance the potential for inefficiency.

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If you know what socialism is, then why are you posting data about "economic freedom" and govt spending?
    Because it is relevant. definition of socialism from Oxford Dictionaries Online

    And, as it has been mentioned several times in this thread, a large portion of the US economy is socialized
    Now, you are sidetracking. He never said large parts of Europe economy is socialized. He said Europe has proven the success of socialism. If it's going to prove the success of socialism, it better be socialism. I then ask you, is US socialist?

    And again, no one is claiming that these nations are 100% socialist. We're just pointing out the absurdity of those who argue that socialism is dead or unworkable when a large portion of the worlds largest economies are, in fact, socialized
    Having large parts of the economy being socialized is not socialism. Today's economies have proven the success of mixed economies, not socialism which has been a complete failure.

  8. #178
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Hardcore socialism, I very much doubt it, as it is against some aspects of human nature. Socialism mixed with capitalism to smooth over the rough edges of either system, absolutely. However, I am not sure how to answer because of the way the OP's question is framed.

  9. #179
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    People seem to say this a lot and I am not sure why. A command structure designed to allocate for industries with market failures is not socialist. Just because something is a public utility doesn't mean it's owned by the public. It just means that a centralized bureaucracy is required to run it to counterbalance the potential for inefficiency.
    For one thing, when a public utility is owned by the govt, it is socialist by definition.

    Secondly, there's a lot more to the socialized economy of the US than public utilities (ie electricity, water, etc). There's SS, Medicare, and a host of other programs that are socialistic
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #180
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Because it is relevant. definition of socialism from Oxford Dictionaries Online


    Now, you are sidetracking. He never said large parts of Europe economy is socialized. He said Europe has proven the success of socialism. If it's going to prove the success of socialism, it better be socialism. I then ask you, is US socialist?


    Having large parts of the economy being socialized is not socialism. Today's economies have proven the success of mixed economies, not socialism which has been a complete failure.
    1) Your definition says nothing about economic freedom or the amt that govt spends. Your response is non-responsive

    2) Your claim that "If it's going to prove the success of socialism, it better be socialism" is your standard. IIRC, the argument is that capitalism requires some amount of socialism to succeed

    And (again) the US is partially socialized

    3) And again, no one is saying that it's 100% socialism. The argument is that it's foolish to claim that socialism is dead when a large portion of the worlds largest economies are socialized. Your claim that socialism is a complete failure is proven untrue by the facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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