View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
  • Don't care

    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
  • No way

    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #161
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    There are different tendencies within libertarian socialism. There are anarcho-communists, who would dissolve the state as a hierarchal system of governance, and would focus more on commune decision making, which includes industry. Anarcho-syndicalists would set up a federation of unions, who would govern industry. Luxemburgists, as I understand, would leave a minarchist state.

    The main idea is removing the government as a hierarchal entity that is separate from the needs of it's citizens. It's a way to achieve socialism without sacrificing freedom in the process.
    I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're agreeing with me (that libertarian-socialism isn't really socialism) while providing a lot more detail
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  2. #162
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're agreeing with me (that libertarian-socialism isn't really socialism) while providing a lot more detail
    What makes it unsocialist?
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  3. #163
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    What makes it unsocialist?
    Owned or controlled by unions is not the same as owned and controlled by the public.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #164
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Socialism did succeed. It's called Norway, France, Germany, etc etc.
    In what ways are they socialist? For instance take a look at Germany.

    Economic freedom (heritage): 77.8 (US) ... 71.8 (Germany)
    Economic freedom(fraser) : 8.0 (US) ... 7.5 (Germany)
    Government spending: 42.46 (US) ... 47.00 (Germany)

    And just for the comparison, governmental spending in Switzerland is 34.17% and 17% in Singapore in 2010. Also, economic freedom in Switzerland is 81.9 (heritage) and 8.1 (fraser)

    Why do people think Scandinavia or any of the European countries are socialists? They are not, regulations are low, there is huge support for free trade. Private people, not the government own the means of production, charter schools are normal. It is easy to open up a business, and taxes are just marginally higher than the US. However, if you take into account the upcoming mandatory private insurance in the US, taxes are about the same. If Germany is socialist, so is America.

    OECD Statistics
    Economic Freedom of the World
    The Heritage Foundation

  5. #165
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Yup. And if it weren't for socialism, capitalism would have collapsed a long time ago. You need a mix of both.
    So now you're moving the goal posts.
    Last edited by American; 09-19-11 at 08:33 AM.
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  6. #166
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    In what ways are they socialist? For instance take a look at Germany.

    Economic freedom (heritage): 77.8 (US) ... 71.8 (Germany)
    Economic freedom(fraser) : 8.0 (US) ... 7.5 (Germany)
    Government spending: 42.46 (US) ... 47.00 (Germany)

    And just for the comparison, governmental spending in Switzerland is 34.17% and 17% in Singapore in 2010. Also, economic freedom in Switzerland is 81.9 (heritage) and 8.1 (fraser)

    Why do people think Scandinavia or any of the European countries are socialists? They are not, regulations are low, there is huge support for free trade. Private people, not the government own the means of production, charter schools are normal. It is easy to open up a business, and taxes are just marginally higher than the US. However, if you take into account the upcoming mandatory private insurance in the US, taxes are about the same. If Germany is socialist, so is America.

    OECD Statistics
    Economic Freedom of the World
    The Heritage Foundation
    Measures of economic freedom and government spending have little to do whether a government is socialist or not. I don't trust the heritage foundation to be able to conceive what socialism is.

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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Measures of economic freedom and government spending have little to do whether a government is socialist or not. I don't trust the heritage foundation to be able to conceive what socialism is.
    So what else is socialism if it's not government regulation and government spending? A socialist country would get very low rankings on both indexes. If it get a high ranking, especially on the Fraser index, it shows that it's not a socialist country.

    You are not the kind of people who determine socialism after it's success, and not its policies?

  8. #168
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    So what else is socialism if it's not government regulation and government spending? A socialist country would get very low rankings on both indexes. If it get a high ranking, especially on the Fraser index, it shows that it's not a socialist country.

    You are not the kind of people who determine socialism after it's success, and not its policies?
    There is no threshold for government spending at which a country becomes socialist or not. There is no one dimensional scale to define what philosophy a country has.

  9. #169
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    There is no threshold for government spending at which a country becomes socialist or not. There is no one dimensional scale to define what philosophy a country has.
    Point out where I said it was, please.

    And then respond to my argument in a proper manner. What is socialism if it's not government regulation and government spending? Where the limit of socialism is, is open to debate. But a country that has pretty much the same government spending and the same amount of regulations as the US, is not socialist.

    What I think you are doing, is to determine socialism after success instead of policy. For instance income inequality, poverty rate, governmental services offered. Socialism is not defined by success. It is defined by policy. Which is an economic system in which the means of production are either state owned or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively.

  10. #170
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Point out where I said it was, please.

    And then respond to my argument in a proper manner. What is socialism if it's not government regulation and government spending? Where the limit of socialism is, is open to debate. But a country that has pretty much the same government spending and the same amount of regulations as the US, is not socialist.

    What I think you are doing, is to determine socialism after success instead of policy. For instance income inequality, poverty rate, governmental services offered. Socialism is not defined by success. It is defined by policy. Which is an economic system in which the means of production are either state owned or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively.
    Your question about what socialism is has been asked and answered several times in this thread.

    Read your last sentence. In the countries named, a large part of the economy is socialized. No one here has claimed that they are 100% socialist.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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