View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
  • Don't care

    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
  • No way

    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #151
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You are being dishonest again and failing to distinguish between the public and the employees, again. Bardo did not say or imply that unions are governing boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No I'm trying to understand what he is saying.
    In all honesty, I've been describing libertarian socialism, not centralized or state socialism. In this set up, the workers would directly self-manage and control public means of production. The government as a central authority wouldn't own the means of production, it's a much more decentralized socialism. In syndicalism atleast, democratic work places would establish democratic trade unions, which would establish a democratically controlled economy.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  2. #152
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    sangha's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The heads of the local and state government?
    Mayors and governors rarely have direct control of the school system and even if they do, they are answerable to the public at large through elections.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #153
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    sangha's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    In all honesty, I've been describing libertarian socialism, not centralized or state socialism. In this set up, the workers would directly self-manage and control public means of production. The government as a central authority wouldn't own the means of production, it's a much more decentralized socialism. In syndicalism atleast, democratic work places would establish democratic trade unions, which would establish a democratically controlled economy.
    Fair enough. While it is one possible configuration, even libertarian socialism allows public management and not just employee mgmt. Of course, the public *could* delegate that mgmt to the employees, but that is not a requirement.

    Also, my understanding of a libertarian socialist system is that there would be no govt aside from a minarchy (ie courts, police, military, etc but no role in managing the means of production) Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #154
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I would agree that they technically own it but that they realistically don't.
    I believe the heads of state largely believe they own and control these institutions.
    I'm addressing ownership, not necessarily control. As taxpayers, you and I own our local public schools, this doesn't mean we have to control them. The school board generally manages the schools.


    I'm saying that the vast majority of parents would have their kids educated, regardless of laws on compulsion.
    Then they aren't affected by the compulsory education laws. If all schools were privatized there would be some parents who wouldn't. Again, this isn't doing harm to themselves, but to the kids.

    The parents that wouldn't have their kids educated, are likely to produce kids that don't value education anyway.
    The kids would be genetically predisposed to an indifference towards education? Or would whether or not they went to school as children make a difference? The parents that aren't educated would be the ones who wouldn't value education, thus passing it along to their kids. I would imagine the highly educated parents would be the parents who would educate their kids no matter what.

    Eliminating compulsory education would start a cycle of indifference for education that would be passed down from generation to generation.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  5. #155
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    I'm addressing ownership, not necessarily control. As taxpayers, you and I own our local public schools, this doesn't mean we have to control them. The school board generally manages the schools.
    In that case, I don't think it qualifies as socialism. As I understand it, socialism requires public or state ownership/control. Employee ownership is a different animal, regardless of what you name it.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #156
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    I'm addressing ownership, not necessarily control. As taxpayers, you and I own our local public schools, this doesn't mean we have to control them. The school board generally manages the schools.
    Sometimes against the will of the people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Then they aren't affected by the compulsory education laws. If all schools were privatized there would be some parents who wouldn't. Again, this isn't doing harm to themselves, but to the kids.
    They are in a way.
    Currently you're limited to the schools in your district, you can't choose any other school outside of it, unless it is private or a charter school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    The kids would be genetically predisposed to an indifference towards education? Or would whether or not they went to school as children make a difference? The parents that aren't educated would be the ones who wouldn't value education, thus passing it along to their kids. I would imagine the highly educated parents would be the parents who would educate their kids no matter what.

    Eliminating compulsory education would start a cycle of indifference for education that would be passed down from generation to generation.
    Not genetically, but based on the environment that the parents create.

    You can look at history to show that prior to compulsory education laws, people were already educating their kids in the various ways.
    The literacy rate was climbing steadily.
    In colonial Mass, people were largely, already literate.

    Public education takes a lot of undeserved credit.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #157
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Also, my understanding of a libertarian socialist system is that there would be no govt aside from a minarchy (ie courts, police, military, etc but no role in managing the means of production) Correct me if I'm wrong.
    There are different tendencies within libertarian socialism. There are anarcho-communists, who would dissolve the state as a hierarchal system of governance, and would focus more on commune decision making, which includes industry. Anarcho-syndicalists would set up a federation of unions, who would govern industry. Luxemburgists, as I understand, would leave a minarchist state.

    The main idea is removing the government as a hierarchal entity that is separate from the needs of it's citizens. It's a way to achieve socialism without sacrificing freedom in the process.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  8. #158
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    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo
    There are different tendencies within libertarian socialism. There are anarcho-communists, who would dissolve the state as a hierarchal system of governance, and would focus more on commune decision making, which includes industry. Anarcho-syndicalists would set up a federation of unions, who would govern industry. Luxemburgists, as I understand, would leave a minarchist state.

    The main idea is removing the government as a hierarchal entity that is separate from the needs of it's citizens. It's a way to achieve socialism without sacrificing freedom in the process.
    Ideology among the left has gotten absolutely nowhere, whether Luxemburgist, Trotskyist or Stalinist. They all have this same delusion in common.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  9. #159
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Sometimes against the will of the people.
    Aren't certain members of the schoolboard elected by the community?




    They are in a way.
    Currently you're limited to the schools in your district, you can't choose any other school outside of it, unless it is private or a charter school.
    I can't speak for your area, but I went to school in three different towns without ever moving. Anything further away would've been impractical without moving. I don't really see how this means compulsory schooling is affecting the lives of parents who would educate their kids no matter what.


    Not genetically, but based on the environment that the parents create.
    Exactly, kids who's parents were apathetic about education will likely also grow up to be apathetic unless they were subject to education growing up. Then, oncethey reach a certain age, and can make their own decisions, they would no longer be compelled to go to school.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  10. #160
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Contradiction of terms.
    You have no idea what you are talking about.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

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