View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
  • Don't care

    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
  • No way

    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #141
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You are being dishonest again and failing to distinguish between the public and the employees, again. Bardo did not say or imply that unions are governing boards.
    No I'm trying to understand what he is saying.

    See Bardo isn't a combative, demeaning person.
    I can have a good conversation with him.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No I'm trying to understand what he is saying.

    See Bardo isn't a combative, demeaning person.
    I can have a good conversation with him.
    If you're trying to understand, you shouldn't be claiming that he meant that.

    Socialism means, as you yourself posted, owned by the govt or owned and controlled by the public.

    The school system is owned by the govt. The govt is controlled by the public (at least, nominally controlled)

    And you have been just as combative. Go back and read your responses to me
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #143
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If you're trying to understand, you shouldn't be claiming that he meant that.

    Socialism means, as you yourself posted, owned by the govt or owned and controlled by the public.

    The school system is owned by the govt. The govt is controlled by the public (at least, nominally controlled)

    And you have been just as combative. Go back and read your responses to me
    I disagree that it is controlled by the public, because much of the public does not participate in the process on deciding control.

    I am aware of how I am towards you.
    It stems from the fact that you start and end with thinly veiled personal attacks.
    This has been an ongoing problem.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #144
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If the union is meant as a governing board and in a capitalist economy it is a defense mechanism, than we can definitely say that the school system is not actually socialism.
    Arguably state socialism, but likely, our standard of schooling is representative of the monarchist, pre fascist school systems of Prussia
    Socialism is used to describe economies. It uses public property, but public property isn't necessarily socialism. I was making the point that teachers are a part of the public, so the teachers technically own the schools along with the rest of the community.


    I don't think the vast majority of people would need to be compelled to educate their children, it doesn't make any sense. Those that wouldn't are already going to have children, who don't see the value in education, anyway.
    Those that wouldn't need compulsory education would have kids who don't see the value in education? Maybe your wording is throwing me off a little, but it seems like those who would educate their children regardless of the law would be educated themselves, allowing them to understand the value of education.

    Any way you look at it, little kids generally arent mature enough to fully understand the importance of getting an education. A parent who doesn't make sure their kids are in school aren't cheating themselves, they're cheating the kids who aren't capable of making their own decisions. So until they're old enough to make their own decisions, I don't see how compulsory education is hurting anything.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  5. #145
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    sangha's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I disagree that it is controlled by the public, because much of the public does not participate in the process on deciding control.

    I am aware of how I am towards you.
    It stems from the fact that you start and end with thinly veiled personal attacks.
    This has been an ongoing problem.
    If people choose not to participate, that is their choice. In a socialist system, people are allowed to participate, or not. WRT the public school system, the public has the right to participate in controlling the schools by electing politicians, and running for positions on the school board and PTA, and going to school board meetings and PTA meetings.

    And it was you who started with the baiting. I suggest you go back and read the post you made that started this. The one where you claim that reality interferes with socialism, or something like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #146
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Socialism is used to describe economies. It uses public property, but public property isn't necessarily socialism. I was making the point that teachers are a part of the public, so the teachers technically own the schools along with the rest of the community.
    I would agree that they technically own it but that they realistically don't.
    I believe the heads of state largely believe they own and control these institutions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Those that wouldn't need compulsory education would have kids who don't see the value in education? Maybe your wording is throwing me off a little, but it seems like those who would educate their children regardless of the law would be educated themselves, allowing them to understand the value of education.

    Any way you look at it, little kids generally arent mature enough to fully understand the importance of getting an education. A parent who doesn't make sure their kids are in school aren't cheating themselves, they're cheating the kids who aren't capable of making their own decisions. So until they're old enough to make their own decisions, I don't see how compulsory education is hurting anything.
    I'm saying that the vast majority of parents would have their kids educated, regardless of laws on compulsion.

    The parents that wouldn't have their kids educated, are likely to produce kids that don't value education anyway.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #147
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If people choose not to participate, that is their choice. In a socialist system, people are allowed to participate, or not. WRT the public school system, the public has the right to participate in controlling the schools by electing politicians, and running for positions on the school board and PTA, and going to school board meetings and PTA meetings.
    I really don't feel like going into how minorities are still sidelined by majorities and how participation is fruitless for those who are under/un represented.


    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And it was you who started with the baiting. I suggest you go back and read the post you made that started this. The one where you claim that reality interferes with socialism, or something like that.
    I really do not believe that socialism is viable with our current reality.
    Resources are finite and can not be manage efficiently under a socialist system.

    That is not baiting and it was not directed at you.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #148
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I would agree that they technically own it but that they realistically don't.
    I believe the heads of state largely believe they own and control these institutions.
    School systems are owned by local and state govts, not the feds. No heads of state are involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #149
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    School systems are owned by local and state govts, not the feds. No heads of state are involved.
    The heads of the local and state government?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #150
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I really don't feel like going into how minorities are still sidelined by majorities and how participation is fruitless for those who are under/un represented.
    School boards and local politicians and legislatures tend to do a fairly decent job of representing minorities, and no political system provides representation that is 100% representative, nor should they. In fact, the way the school system is set up, minorities often get an undue amount of influence on the system.




    I really do not believe that socialism is viable with our current reality.
    Resources are finite and can not be manage efficiently under a socialist system.
    That is not baiting and it was not directed at you.
    It wasn't directed specifically at me, but it was baiting. Especially since it was posted without explanation. I wasn't the only one who took issue with it.

    And your claim about finite resources and their efficient management is irrelevant because efficiency is not the goal. The goal is whats best for the public and society as a whole. I think most socialists would agree that capitalism is more efficient. I think that most libertarians would agree that efficiency is not the ultimate goal of an economic system, though you might not.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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