View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
  • Don't care

    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
  • No way

    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #131
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Even charter schools are owned by the govt. They are sometimes run by a private entity, but they are owned by the state
    AFAIK charter schools are publicly funded but usually privately owned and operated. The actual deed to the school is usually in private hands I believe. I could be way off base.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  2. #132
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    AFAIK charter schools are publicly funded but usually privately owned and operated. The actual deed to the school is usually in private hands I believe. I could be way off base.
    Nope. The charter school itself is publicly owned. The company that runs the charter school might be privately owned, but the school itself is part of the public school system and is publicaly owned

    Charter school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Charter schools are primary or secondary schools that receive public money (and like other schools, may also receive private donations) but are not subject to some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each school's charter.[1] Charter schools are opened and attended by choice.[2] While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition.
    If the charter school were privately owned, it would be called a private school
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #133
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    We're getting away from the current situation and into hypothetical waters.

    If we lived in a libertarian-socialist society, the faculty of a single institution would make up a mini-union within that institution. A democratic collective responsible for appointing management and making decisions. That single institution would represent the larger union which would represent that industry on a larger scale. The union within a capitalist economy is a means of defense, a union within a libertarian-socialist economy would be a means of cooperation and economic democracy.
    If the union is meant as a governing board and in a capitalist economy it is a defense mechanism, than we can definitely say that the school system is not actually socialism.
    Arguably state socialism, but likely, our standard of schooling is representative of the monarchist, pre fascist school systems of Prussia

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    You're also not an adult in the years that you are required to attend school. Would schooling not be compulsory in a libertarian-capitalist society? I don't see how it could be, seeing that education would be privatized, therefore you would be required by law to purchase a product. I don't see the merit in making education non-compulsory for children.
    I don't think the vast majority of people would need to be compelled to educate their children, it doesn't make any sense.
    Those that wouldn't are already going to have children, who don't see the value in education, anyway.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #134
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Once again, you are failing to distinguish between the public and the employees. Unions represent the workers, not the public
    I understand that unions represent the workers.
    The thing here though, is that socialist enterprises have been popularly described as being democratically run institutions, where the workers own the means of production.
    In this case, it would be the teachers.

    That would disqualify it as socialist, going by that definition.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #135
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If the union is meant as a governing board and in a capitalist economy it is a defense mechanism, than we can definitely say that the school system is not actually socialism.
    Unions are not meant to be governing boards. They are meant to represent the workers.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #136
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I understand that unions represent the workers.
    The thing here though, is that socialist enterprises have been popularly described as being democratically run institutions, where the workers own the means of production.
    In this case, it would be the teachers.

    That would disqualify it as socialist, going by that definition.
    No, socialism doesn't mean "workers own the means of production". It means "the means of production are publically owned"

    Again, you are failing to distinguish between "the employees" and "the public"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #137
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Unions are not meant to be governing boards. They are meant to represent the workers.
    Bardo makes the distinction between what unions are meant to be, in different economies.
    That is what I am addressing.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #138
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, socialism doesn't mean "workers own the means of production". It means "the means of production are publically owned"

    Again, you are failing to distinguish between "the employees" and "the public"
    Then what are worker owned collectives?
    Are they not socialist?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #139
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Bardo makes the distinction between what unions are meant to be, in different economies.
    That is what I am addressing.
    You are being dishonest again and failing to distinguish between the public and the employees, again. Bardo did not say or imply that unions are governing boards.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #140
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then what are worker owned collectives?
    Are they not socialist?
    Not necesarily, no
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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